#new_elma

--- Log opened Thu Sep 06 16:19:31 2012

16:39 < Ropelli_> where repo

16:40 < Ruotiukko> mitro?

16:40 < Smibu> :)

16:41 < Smibu> kopaka hosts svn, dunno url yet

16:42 < Ropelli_> oke

16:43 < Louskebab> mitrolli repolli

16:43 < Ropelli_> who

16:44 < Smibu> btw, about the menu stuff... we can render them with opengl of course, but how to make the items clickable? does the glfw lib provide solution that or something?

16:44 < Smibu> for that*

16:44 < Ropelli_> input with opengl framework

16:45 < Ropelli_> glfw for example

16:45 < Smibu> ok, nice

16:46 < Ropelli_> how was teh input implemented in reclayer ?

16:46 < Ropelli_> or replayer whatever the name was

16:49 < Smibu> i think jon used glut or glui for it

16:49 < Ropelli_> k

17:16 -!- mode/#new-elma [+ooo Smibu Markku- harrii] by Kopaka

18:17 <@jonsykkel> yes glut 8D

18:19 <@jonsykkel> was really just some random test and never orkaed switch to some lib that has been updated since 1985

18:50 < Ropelli_> rolf

19:05 < Ropelli_> where rep

19:15 < Ropelli_> http://www.sfml-dev.org this seems quite decent opengl framework aswell.. maybe should look into this one aswel

19:30 <@Smibu> hm yes it looks fine and also seems to have good rating on sourceforge

19:42 -!- Netsplit hub.irc.pl <-> poznan.irc.pl quits: berh

20:28 <@Smibu> i think the menu system should be planned too... such as what items should be in main menu, submenus etc...

20:29 <@Smibu> also it would prolly be desirable to be able to chat in menus too

20:29 < Ropelli_> when teh repository shiet is available..? its easiest to write those docs there and discuss about them in chat

20:31 <@Smibu> imo google docs is better for writing docs... because everyone can observe what we are planning and comment on them if needed

20:31 <@Smibu> i suppose the rep will be only for devs

20:33 < Louskebab> pasibel cursor in game as well as menus?

20:33 < Louskebab> guessing no big complications from that? diff question is if people want

20:34 <@Smibu> yeah, why not, i dont see any obstacles for that... cursor can be auto hidden when starting a ride and if user moves mouse, it becomes visible

20:34 < Louskebab> yeoh, also options are a good way to please all :P

20:34 <@Smibu> yea

20:36 < Ropelli_> yeah teh doc for features for the game should be on google docs :D

20:37 < Ropelli_> i could try set up some coding conventions and such so its probably ezier to deal with random code in future

20:37 < Ropelli_> like guidelines, not rules though :p

20:38 <@Smibu> yeah

21:01 <@Kopaka> I wonder this: does any of you have experience, lotsa knowledge, about game development?

21:01 <@Kopaka> I mean no offense, but some stuff sounds a tad like guesswork

21:01 <@Kopaka> I just don't want us to get into any big pitfalls

21:01 < Ropelli_> once made minesweeper in school but it crashed

21:01 <@Kopaka> so if not, we should make sure to get some tips from some pro

21:02 < Ropelli_> well i hope theres really people with knowledge of c++

21:02 < Ropelli_> its not only that you know the syntax

21:02 < Ropelli_> you gotta know how to take the advantage of the features c++ provide, and also have the knowledge to avoid common pitfals

21:02 <@Kopaka> have mostly made websites, but have many times had to remake entire projects because I later realised what I did was shit

21:03 <@Kopaka> mje0

21:03 < Ropelli_> just hoping theres people with that knowledge :s

21:04 <@Kopaka> was thinking we could make some doc where ppl who want to help can type in their nicks and what they know and what they expect to be able to help with

21:04 <@Kopaka> so we know who is interested and what they can do

21:05 < Ropelli_> yeah well what ive been thinking that there is an interface between all these stuff, like drawing(opengl), maths(physics & collisions), network code, etc and each one could focus on their own thing

21:06 <@Kopaka> ye

21:06 < Ropelli_> so you dont have to know everything about the actual implementation of the project, just the required knowledge that you can make decent solution for the problem given for you(e.g opengl drawing)

21:09 <@Smibu> well, i have not developed (serious) games before, but through elmanager and some other projects i know OOP reasonably well

21:09 <@Smibu> network programming - not much experience

21:12 < Ropelli_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kHvQeL7-AeEF4NIXbFuS8_pa_j-VCYUGOIMMaB_QwXs/edit# well ive written some thoughts about the coding conventions which totem also suggested

21:13 < Louskebab> why totem nat here

21:13 <@Smibu> you need to give permissions for us to view that

21:13 < Ropelli_> these are quite minor though, the actual design a bit more important

21:13 < Ropelli_> did

21:13 <@Smibu> yeah totem should be here too

21:15 <@jonsykkel> disagree on int* bla

21:15 < Ropelli_> int *a ?

21:15 <@jonsykkel> ye

21:16 <@jonsykkel> imagine int* hi, ho

21:16 <@jonsykkel> look like 2 int pointers

21:16 < Ropelli_> ye wel used teh same way for quite some time, thought that at least int& is more c++ than int &

21:16 < Ropelli_> hm ye

21:16 <@Smibu> ive used the int *a form too rather than int* a

21:17 < Ropelli_> wel these are rather minor so its ez to use whichever one wants

21:17 <@jonsykkel> tru, just sayink

21:18 < Ropelli_> ye

21:25 < Ropelli_> smibu u got good knowledge with c++ ?

21:26 <@Smibu> well, ive done less c++ than c#

21:27 < Ropelli_> its just that its quite ez to screw up with c++, with all those copy constructors, pointers and references

21:27 <@Smibu> well yea i believe i understand those things

21:27 < Ropelli_> najs

21:27 <@Smibu> but for example ive never used templates

21:28 < Ropelli_> ook

21:28 < Ropelli_> those are quite useful in certain situations

21:28 <@Smibu> but i know what they are and such ofc

21:29 < Ropelli_> boost makes quite excessive use of tempates, and i think the code should practise templates quite much aswel

21:43 <@Smibu> how long you've been coding c++, rop?

21:43 < Ropelli_> well c++ some 4 years.. before that messed with .net languages for quite some time :D

21:44 <@Smibu> yeah just by looking at the doc you're writing it's clear that you know some stuff

21:45 < Ropelli_> well yeah by own projects learned some stuff and by reading online guides :p

21:45 <@Smibu> yea same with me in c#

22:00 < onl> does it work on LINUX

22:03 <@Markku-> it will

22:08 <@harrii> i know c++ pretty well

22:08 <@harrii> just like ropelli, i have been coding c++ for some 4 years now

22:08 <@harrii> at work

22:08 < Ropelli_> ah nice

22:09 < Ropelli_> very familiar with it then ?

22:09 <@harrii> very familiar with C++Builder :)

22:09 <@Smibu> im the noobest with c++ here :)

22:10 <@harrii> c# is not so far away...

22:10 < Ropelli_> its just important to notice the differences between c# and c++

22:10 <@Smibu> no garbage collection in c++ ?

22:10 <@Markku-> i know some basic c++ oop, but nothing comparable to you guys, so i guess i'm not much of a help there

22:10 <@harrii> yea smibu

22:10 <@Markku-> never done any gui programming even

22:10 < Ropelli_> c# manages the memory by itself where c++ does it manually

22:11 <@Smibu> oki

22:11 <@harrii> you have to be very aware of pointers and stuff

22:11 < Ropelli_> yeah but better not to use plain at all, just stick with boost::scoped_ptr or boost::shared_ptr

22:11 < Ropelli_> plain pointers

22:11 <@harrii> i haven't used boost

22:13 < Ropelli_> oki

22:14 <@Smibu> i think we can move the impl. details section from the feature doc to this rop's doc

22:14 <@Smibu> or?

22:14 < Ropelli_> yeah i can move

22:21 <@jonsykkel> shared_ptr hmm (

22:22 < Ropelli_> quite basic

22:22 <@jonsykkel> imo should instead write the code properli

22:23 < Ropelli_> waiting for teh rep.. i could make sum start points tho

22:24 < Ropelli_> smibu u got teh physics engine code so i could check it out ???

22:24 <@Smibu> well, why not. hold on a sec

22:27 <@Smibu> i will add quickly just a few comments to the code to some non-obvious stuff

22:28 < Ropelli_> oke

22:35 <@harrii> what is shared_ptr?

22:35 <@Smibu> done, check lauta pm

22:35 <@Smibu> i zipped the whole VS project

22:36 < Ropelli_> ty

22:39 <@harrii> i think each level should have some properties, like are bounces enabled, is left supervolt enabled, is right supervolt enabled

22:40 <@harrii> if those were level's properties, then for all internals we could set bounces enabled and left supervolt disabled etc

22:41 <@jonsykkel> dunno, a level should be a level i think

22:42 <@harrii> this project's name should be "Across 3"

22:42 <@jonsykkel> as kopa said we should decide upon either 1.4 or 2.0

22:42 <@harrii> across is still better known than elma

22:44 <@harrii> if we were patching the old elma, then it could be elma 1.4

22:44 <@harrii> now if we make everything from scratch, it has to be elma 2.0

22:45 <@harrii> or across 3 :)

22:46 <@jonsykkel> yeu just meant imo should either be 100% old elma behavior or new with fixed stuff

22:46 <@jonsykkel> lajk vsync and bugbances

22:46 <@harrii> trust me, with new implementation there will always be new bugs and features

22:46 <@harrii> we can't ever make 100% same

22:47 <@jonsykkel> why nat?

22:47 <@Smibu> the physics *is* 100% same :)

22:47 <@harrii> because the code base is different

22:47 <@jonsykkel> 100% same behavior entirely pasibel

22:49 <@harrii> smibu, how have you copied it?

22:49 <@Smibu> "from scratch" is maybe inaccurate because the physics is copied from old elma

22:49 <@Smibu> ida pro + hex-rays decompiler

22:50 <@harrii> ok :)

22:51 <@harrii> then i believe that the physics can be the same, but all the other things will be different

22:51 <@Smibu> yep

22:52 <@harrii> who will make new graphics?

22:52 <@harrii> wasn't DaFred pro at making graphics?

22:53 <@Smibu> we can use old graphics as well, at least at first (lgr files, that is)

22:53 < Louskebab> Lee quite teh pro

22:53 <@Smibu> but sure, if we make 24-bit support, someone could indeed make new

22:53 <@Smibu> when we make*

22:53 <@harrii> yes Lee for example

22:54 <@harrii> we have so much more possibilities than Balazs had

22:54 < Louskebab> some minimalistic default would be good... imo grass and sash not needed at all but i think many disagree

22:54 <@jonsykkel> im think: 24bit lgr suport and old lgr 24bitified as default

22:54 <@Smibu> yea jon

22:55 <@harrii> everybody have internet now so online gaming is the main thing anyway

22:55 <@jonsykkel> or corection: just suport both formats

22:55 <@harrii> yep

22:56 <@jonsykkel> + another corection: 32-bit

22:56 <@harrii> yep :)

22:56 <@jonsykkel> =)d

22:56 <@harrii> alpha pictures... :)

22:56 <@jonsykkel> hihihi

22:58 <@Smibu> ropelli btw, dont waste too much time refactoring the physics routines :) the code looks shit, but it works anyway

23:03 < Ropelli_> i wouldnt o,o just checking this

23:03 <@Smibu> oki

23:35 < onl> when is it raed??

23:35 < onl> ready?

23:41 <@jonsykkel> 200

23:53 < onl> how much now

23:53 <@jonsykkel> -4.9

--- Day changed Fri Sep 07 2012

00:24 < totem> hi

00:24 <@jonsykkel> hi

00:25 < totem> did you discuss of new lev/rec file format yet ?

00:29 < totem> I mean, all people say source code should be closed-source to avoid cheat. But maybe the key is to let all code be open source, and only .lev/.rec file writing is closed-source

00:29 < totem> and with mega-smart encoding it's impsy to cheat ?

00:30 < onl> what if the encoder is the cheater

00:31 < totem> by encoding i mean algorithmically encoded, like public/private keys

00:32 < totem> there is brains out there, Smibu for example is a mathematician

00:32 <@Markku-> we were toying with the idea that maybe lev doesn't need any encryption, only rec

00:32 <@Markku-> if times are gonna be centrally stored outside the lev files

00:32 < totem> yeah of course you're right

00:33 < totem> and will it be mandatory to make time online ?

00:34 <@Markku-> could be cached if driven offline, and then verified by some mechanism when connect next time

00:34 < totem> sounds good

00:35 < Louskebab> sounds ideal yeu.. how can sash mechanism be cheatproof though?

00:35 <@Markku-> that's for the smart guys to figure out

00:35 < totem> with confidential keys

00:35 < totem> the only data that should not be open cource

00:35 < totem> source

00:35 <@Markku-> yeah

00:36 < Louskebab> oki. sorry for tech question from untech boi :-D

00:36 < totem> like a prime number with X digits, without which you cant decrypt rec file

00:37 < totem> or something like that, i dont like mathematics

00:40 < Louskebab> k. getting the idea.

00:40 <@Markku-> ye that's kinda the basic idea in many encryption schemes, you have some large semiprime that is very hard to factorize (public key), and only you know one of the factors (private key)

00:41 <@Markku-> semiprime being a factor of two primes

00:41 < Balazs> o,o

00:42 < totem> maybe there is more sophisticated mechanism

00:42 < totem> where we won't depend on only one magic number

00:44 < totem> good night, see you

00:44 <@Markku-> night

00:46 <@Markku-> *product of two primes btw, of course

01:50 <@Kopaka> many things in that stuff from mopo in features doc that is already in eol

01:51 <@Kopaka> I'm guessing we want like 99% of eol in

01:51 <@Kopaka> better to write the few things if any to not put in, to clean it up

01:52 <@Markku-> yeh ez 99% of eol

01:52 <@Markku-> the other 1% are the bugs

01:57 < Louskebab> trying to think of bad stuff in eol

01:58 < Louskebab> i guess none of it is inherently bad, just used wrong/too much

01:58 < Louskebab> like crippled battles

01:58 <@jonsykkel> the tempting but deadly internal batle checkbox

01:58 < Louskebab> how about simultaneous battles? private battles? has been any discussion about teh?

01:59 < Louskebab> would be much more imaginable if cursor added

01:59 <@Markku-> with mouse support, balle starting should be ez ingame

01:59 <@Markku-> no need for separate startballe

01:59 <@Kopaka> would be nice ye, atleast to plan it from start so possible to do

01:59 < Louskebab> yeah, but many battles running at same time?

01:59 <@Kopaka> could be awesome for meetings and such

02:00 < Louskebab> yeah. private servers even?

02:00 < Louskebab> lan flagtag :ooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

02:00 <@Markku-> private uphill server for nekit and madness

02:00 <@Kopaka> no reason to no be able to see everyone else aswell, a private battle could just be locked to outsiders so they don't play it too

02:01 <@Markku-> yeo

02:01 < Louskebab> didn't get teh, hmm?

02:01 <@Kopaka> like you set specific ppl that can play it

02:01 <@Markku-> start private balle, select participants

02:01 <@Kopaka> others can still see you in f5

02:01 <@Kopaka> but cant dl the lev nad play

02:01 < Louskebab> ah ye

02:02 < Louskebab> meant that as "no reason for priva servers" ?

02:02 <@Kopaka> ye

02:02 < Louskebab> well.. uptime would be a reason

02:02 < Louskebab> and lag

02:03 < Louskebab> flagtag already is mostly hard to play because of lag

02:03 <@Kopaka> well, with offline caching that is sent to server when back, and also you need to send times to same db all the time if make wr and sach

02:03 <@Kopaka> hmm ye, lag as to how you see others are a prob

02:04 <@Kopaka> wouldn't help with priv server though?

02:04 <@Kopaka> it's ping in flagtag

02:04 <@Markku-> would work fine in lan i guess

02:04 < Louskebab> then it'd be dependent on your own hardware, no?

02:04 <@Kopaka> ah ye in lan pasibel it would be fine

02:04 < Louskebab> rare situations where own server would be needed, though. maybe not enough for a relatively huge addition.

02:05 <@Kopaka> ez some "sync bike positions over lan when possible" option :)

02:05 < Louskebab> ha, nice!

02:05 <@Markku-> ez

02:06 < Louskebab> well solved ;-D back to lurking ->

02:06 <@Kopaka> :P

02:06 <@Markku-> slepa ->

02:06 <@Kopaka> bed ->

02:06 < Louskebab> night bois

02:06 <@Markku-> nn

02:08 <@jonsykkel> n

02:32 < Jappe2> one ability i havent seen mentioned yet is to jump between multiverses so if you dont like someone you can go to another reality which is exactly like yours except that person doesnt exist

02:32 < Jappe2> also it should kill the original you in the new reality so you dont have to do it yourself

02:33 < Jappe2> or maybe option for that if you wanna do it yourself

09:31 <@ville_j> yes maybe in addition to elma 2 we can also mayke some kind of prog which can be used to stretch time and space

09:31 <@ville_j> like a small extra feature just for fun

16:51 <@Smibu> one big question: should it be possible to pause the game?

16:53 <@Markku-> that's an interesting question

16:53 <@Markku-> first thought: no

16:53 <@Markku-> second thought: dunno

16:58 < onla> yes

16:59 < onla> then in slowest finish battle pause and wait

17:02 <@Smibu> :) but of course timer would pause too

17:02 <@Smibu> maybe ez xiit in last counts balle? dunno

17:03 <@Markku-> not if last counts balle works as it does now

17:03 <@Markku-> time is reset right when you enter the lev

17:04 <@Smibu> ah ok

17:17 < Madness> pause the game? wtf

17:17 < Madness> like that one could pause it at some spot, then go to editor and train that certain part, then go back, unpause and play?

17:18 <@Markku-> that would be saving, not pausing

17:19 <@Kopaka> still you could pause, train the next part on diff comp, and then resume

17:19 <@Markku-> ye

17:19 <@Kopaka> kind of comes back to the 2.0 vs. 1.4 debate I think, like many things

17:19 <@Kopaka> for 2.0 with new wr table it could be discussed

17:19 < Madness> what about an in-game saveload?

17:19 < Louskebab> too big change imo :S lowers risk factor in levs like cp080ff

17:19 < Madness> at least no one could find a way to cheat

17:20 < Louskebab> some kinda training mode with sl pasibel

17:21 <@Kopaka> would be more fair (like stuff like alovolt) with built in sl you might say, all have even possibility to use it (ofc it doesn't save times)

17:21 < Louskebab> i brainstormed some training mode somewhere once, i'll dig logs :P

17:22 < Madness> i don't want a new elma anymore

17:22 < Madness> stop making it please

17:22 < Louskebab> oki this is all

17:23 < Louskebab> [19.09.][21:53] <Louskebab> basically saveload/editor where can save replays

17:23 < Louskebab> [19.09.][21:54] <Louskebab> just something to substitute trainlevs

17:23 < Louskebab> [19.09.][21:54] <Louskebab> and saveload training, duh

17:23 < Louskebab> [19.09.][21:55] <Louskebab> and could share train replays without the need to share trainlev

17:28 <@Smibu> do we need any ingame help stuff?

17:30 <@Smibu> my opinion: no, just write some external help doc if needed

17:38 <@Markku-> added a bunch of stuff to feature doc

17:38 <@Markku-> mostly stuff requested in the lauta topic

19:17 < Ropelli_> off to irl maybe sometime should start on teh coding too

19:17 < Ropelli_> ?

19:18 < Ropelli_> i can mayke some start point from where people could see teh code and start working on it

19:18 < Ropelli_> just need to repo for it

19:31 <@Kopaka> after I eat I will add the users

19:32 < Ropelli_> kay ill go irl now tomorow or late nigh back

19:57 < Louskebab> bragster

--- Day changed Sat Sep 08 2012

12:15 -!- totem- [~totem-@lya72-3-78-223-53-199.fbx.proxad.net] has left #new-elma []

13:13 -!- totem- [~totem-@lya72-3-78-223-53-199.fbx.proxad.net] has left #new-elma []

14:12 < Ropelli_> kopaka u got teh repo place?

14:16 <@Kopaka> ye

14:47 <@harrii> svn repository?

14:49 <@Smibu> ye

14:50 <@harrii> nice

14:51 <@Smibu> zeb seen this doc? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kHvQeL7-AeEF4NIXbFuS8_pa_j-VCYUGOIMMaB_QwXs/edit

14:51 <@Smibu> some impl. details stuff

14:52 <@harrii> hmm no

14:55 <@harrii> namespaces, types and variables shall use only lowercase letters, e.g int value; my_class obj;

14:56 <@harrii> types should be in uppercase

14:56 <@harrii> classes etc

14:58 <@harrii> if(condition) should be if (condition)

14:58 <@harrii> space there

15:01 < Ropelli_> youve used that one?

15:01 <@harrii> well, yes...

15:01 <@harrii> anyway, i pretty much agree with all the rules

15:01 < Ropelli_> yeah quite minor

15:01 < Ropelli_> just wanted to follow the conventions which are used in std and boost

15:02 <@harrii> I think classes should be in CamelCase

15:03 <@harrii> easy to make difference between class and object

15:03 < Ropelli_> yeah .net languages use that

15:03 < Ropelli_> yes

15:03 < Ropelli_> you can mayke those changes in teh doc if want

15:03 < Ropelli_> i can give rights

15:03 <@harrii> that's kind of the biggest problem here... otherwise ok

15:03 <@harrii> ok :)

15:03 < Ropelli_> just need teh email

15:03 <@Markku-> i think Lee is our best candidate for making some high quality graphics

15:03 <@harrii> probably

15:05 < Louskebab> mans boosting std's here

15:06 <@Markku-> ye, gotta beware those CamelToes

15:41 < totem-> have you talk of internationalization ? release with english by default, but ability to switch UI to other language, and let this be stored as a user preference

15:42 < Louskebab> err.. who needs another language

15:46 <@Smibu> we havent talked about that, but imo english version is enough

15:46 < Ropelli_> ye

16:05 <@Kopaka> no reason to make it more elaborate than necessary

16:32 -!- totem- [~totem-@lya72-3-78-223-53-199.fbx.proxad.net] has left #new-elma []

17:23 < Max__> "rec/lev to include unique index to match with time/lev in db"

17:23 < Max__> Make content addressable by hashes.

17:23 < Max__> That's the best way to distribute stuff like this.

17:24 < Max__> Hash trees, etc.

17:25 < Louskebab> mmmmm, hash tree...

17:25 <@Markku-> ah, you're just the guy we need here

17:26 <@Markku-> (no irony whatsoever, in case it sounded like that)

17:26 < Louskebab> what about sarcasm

17:26 < Max__> If I were to design it all, I'd use git.

17:26 <@Markku-> did i say irony? i meant sarcasm.

17:27 < Ropelli_> actually weve been thinking about using svn

17:27 <@Markku-> those pesky terms

17:27 < Ropelli_> and already has teh server

17:27 < Max__> I meant for the game itself, not managing source code.

17:27 < Max__> Each level would just be a git branch.

17:28 < Max__> So deltas are automatic, etc .. could make the format simply text and it'll be awesomely efficient still.

17:29 < Max__> When you fetch a level, you'd fetch ultimately by commit ID.

17:30 < Max__> which is a sha1 that lets you get the full version history.

17:30 < Max__> and if someone forks it, git knows only to fetch the updates.

17:43 < Max__> Anyway, why would you use svn for anything?

17:45 <@Smibu> well, it was easy for kopaka to set it up

17:46 <@Smibu> those free source hosting services on internet usually have some 5 users limit

17:47 < Max__> github doesn't, but even without it, it should be easy to set up.

17:47 < Ropelli_> experimenting with teh svn atm

17:47 <@Smibu> does git offer some huge advantages over svn?

17:47 < Max__> It's distributed.

17:47 < Max__> So there isn't really any emphasis on any central server.

17:48 < Ropelli_> smibu u got teh svn server already ?

17:48 < Max__> and you don't have to give permissions to .. anyone, really.

17:48 <@Smibu> no ropelli

17:48 < Ropelli_> maybe should ask kopaka

17:48 < Max__> You could just merge in stuff you want from people who ask you to.

17:48 < Max__> (which is how Linux works, for example)

17:49 < Ropelli_> max u know cmake or qmake?

17:49 < Max__> Linus maintains the master repository, and just merges in stuff that other core guys ask him to.

17:49 < Max__> No.

17:49 < Max__> Just make, a bit.

17:50 < Ropelli_> oke

17:52 < Max__> and .. if the guy who owns the repository becomes evil, everyone else still has a fully clone of the repository.

17:52 < Max__> er, the main one.

17:53 < Max__> and also because of that, almost every operation is local and fast.

17:54 < Max__> Can check out/diff with an old version without talking to any server.

17:54 < Ropelli_> i think its best to stick with svn

17:54 < Max__> It's also securer, I think.

17:54 < Max__> Because of the sha1 sums.

17:54 < Max__> All content is addressed by them.

17:55 <@Markku-> Max__, any ideas for rec encryption?

17:55 <@Markku-> and anticheat in general

17:56 < Max__> Rec encryption where?

17:57 <@Markku-> i mean, how the new rec format should be encrypted in order to prevent cheating

17:58 <@Markku-> not that we have discussed the format itself much yet

17:58 < Max__> The problem with encrypting things like that is that the user will probably have to get the data out at *some* point.

17:58 < Max__> or the renderer at least.

17:58 < Max__> Could be rendered on the server, but that's silly.

17:59 < Max__> imo, experiment with subtle changes to the physics.

17:59 <@Markku-> i think that would be silly, yes

17:59 <@Smibu> encryption itself doesnt prevent modification... there needs to be some hash included (the hash could possibly be encrypted)

17:59 < Max__> See if you can make changes that the player can't notice, but that would mess up something like a save/load replayer.

17:59 < Max__> (well, that *won't* affect the player)

18:00 < Max__> I suspect that'd work fairly well if the physics rate is high enough.

18:00 <@Markku-> jon suggested that the physics engine should run at a fixed fps (1000 or whatever) and it's just rendered on screen as fast as it can be handled

18:01 < Max__> If it does, you can make the server produce what is effectively an encryption key, which modifies the physics subtly.

18:01 <@Smibu> yeah but i dont see how that could be achieved... because the flow of physics depend on keypresses.. and we can only press keys when we see what's being rendered

18:01 < Ropelli_> and the game wont run at constant speed if constant fps

18:02 < Max__> Run the physics engine at a constant FPS.

18:02 < Max__> The rendering is another matter.

18:02 < Max__> Remember when I lost a battle with a best time of like two months?

18:02 < Ropelli_> well doesnt rendering just present the data from physics engine in visual form

18:03 < Max__> (and onla or someone banned me for losing :()

18:03 < Max__> I think Elma has a minimum physics FPS, independent of the rendering one.

18:03 < Max__> which is something like 30

18:03 < Max__> I managed to compute 2 months of whatever that is, in about five minutes.

18:06 <@Smibu> and what about these external cheat tools... like hourglass

18:06 < Max__> The way Elma will work atm is pretty much: for(;;){ state = next_state(state); draw_state(state); /* update key presses in state */ }

18:07 < Max__> which is why the physics differs depending on how fast you can render.

18:07 <@Smibu> yeah

18:08 < Max__> Smibu: the server wouldn't accept a replay say, 1.5*replay.time after it issued the encryption keyp.

18:09 < Max__> Probably less than 1.5

18:10 < Max__> So you'd need to get a new key to play the level, and evaluating a previous replay with the new subtle physics changes would .. hopefully fail.

18:11 <@Markku-> there was some talk about considering offline caching of times if e.g. server is down, and then verifying them on the next connect, but i don't know how it would tie up with what you just said

18:11 < Max__> Hmm .. dunno.

18:11 < Max__> Yeah, it wouldn't.

18:12 < Max__> and actually, dunno if the subtle physics changes would be effective enough.

18:14 < Max__> I remember making a program that recorded my first player keys and play them back as the second player.

18:14 < Max__> Usually failed horribly, but sometimes got fairly far.

18:14 < Max__> Though it'd've been far different doing something of record quality.

18:15 < Max__> But that was done at the level of the OS' input.

18:15 < Max__> which would have to be more significant.

18:16 < Max__> How does save/load work? It actually loads some previous state, right?

18:16 * Max__ has never downloaded or used it.

18:19 < Max__> http://eol.sshoyer.net/?s=battles&b=4680

18:27 < Max__> Hmm .. I think as for the server down thing .. you should try making it distributed.

18:28 < Max__> So some players are also servers.

18:28 < Max__> Probably just ones deemed trustable.

18:29 < Max__> If the subtle physics modification worked, it'd be safe to have everyone know pretty much everything.

18:30 < Max__> Because each run's replay data is run according to that particular key, which is associated with the player.

18:33 <@Markku-> the hourglass saveload is a more general one, not just for elma

18:33 <@Markku-> but i don't know exactly how that works, either

18:34 <@Markku-> never tried

18:34 <@Markku-> i like the idea of making the server distributed

18:34 < Max__> Savestates: Save the game's state and restore it to that state later, if you want to erase a mistake or try making different choices.

18:34 < Max__> Input recording and playback: Keeps track of what you do in the game, and lets you watch what the final result looked like as far as the game is concerned. Re-recording via savestates is supported as well.

18:35 < Max__> So I guess it can use both.

18:35 < Max__> The savestates is easy to overcome.

18:36 < Max__> If input recording works effectively, it'd probably be fairly difficult to protect against.

18:37 < Max__> Without physics modification though, it's always possible to cheat.

18:37 < Max__> Might just be difficult.

18:38 < Max__> Involving programming, etc, as was done with save/load, presumably.

18:38 <@Markku-> i guess it would be enough to make cheating prohibitively difficult

18:38 < Max__> Elma has an advantage over other games in that there's not much a computer can do to enhance your run.

18:39 < Max__> Auto aim, etc

18:39 <@Markku-> right

18:39 < Max__> But if the physics is always the same, you can always do state saving/loading.

18:43 < koffing> this?)

18:43 < Max__> If a volt were 1.001 times the normal power, would it affect the player? Would it affect the physics evaluation significantly enough to make the player die eventually?

18:44 <@Markku-> just a random idea: what if there's an additional dummy physics variable that will be perturbed each time, but which won't actually affect the player

18:44 <@Markku-> i don't know if that makes any sense

18:45 < Max__> That would be something that would make it harder.

18:45 < Ropelli_> smibu you got teh svn access ?

18:46 < Max__> It'd basically just prevent things like hourglass doing a state save/load.

18:46 < Max__> You can still capture the relevant physics input and rerun that in a different run.

18:46 <@Markku-> i see

18:47 < Max__> (physics input = frame-based changes in key states)

18:52 <@Smibu> ropelli i will ask kopa now

18:52 < Max__> Hmm .. assuming the minimum framerate in EOL is 30, that 8-day run I did in 5 minutes will've been at ~70k fps.

18:53 < Max__> So a constant, reasonably high physics framerate would be quite reasonable.

18:54 < Max__> Maybe it'd be lowered if something were actually happening.

18:54 < Ropelli_> what if the comp cannot handle that high framerate

18:54 < Max__> Any comp should be able to handle 1000, easily.

18:54 < Ropelli_> well ye

18:55 < Ropelli_> just need to priorize teh physics framerate and do drawing when possible

18:55 < Ropelli_> also input would become laggy if using that fixed physics fps

18:55 < Max__> Why?

18:56 < Ropelli_> if comp cannot handle teh drawing fast enough

18:56 < Max__> The drawing rate will be independent of calculation rate.

18:57 < Ropelli_> its all good if the comp is able to handle that 1k constant fps, but if nat all else would become laggy

18:57 < Max__> Might be in a different thread, dunno.

18:58 < Ropelli_> in one second teh comp should be able to do 1k physics calcs, also at least 30 draws, and input should be checked also at least 30 times

18:59 < Max__> Any comp should be able to handle 1k physics calcs.

18:59 < Ropelli_> well yeah true

18:59 < Max__> Rendering will probably be far more computationally complex.

18:59 < Max__> intensive*

19:00 <@Smibu> true. and when we add those 32-bit gfx compared to 8-bit, it will be even more intensive

19:00 < Ropelli_> ye

19:02 < Ropelli_> all that should occur in main thread ? or use separate thread for phys calcs and input & draw

19:03 < Max__> Should probably do rendering in a different thread.

19:03 < Ropelli_> it would take more resources from comp if using 2 threads

19:03 < Ropelli_> -> more efficient

19:05 < Ropelli_> physics engine const 1k fps, and input querying and draw should happen consecutively ?

19:07 < Max__> Dunno how input usually works in games.

19:07 < Ropelli_> between input & draw it should cache the results of the phys engine

19:07 < Max__> I suspect you'd want to keep it out of the drawing thread, if it exists.

19:07 < Max__> Maybe in the physics thread, depending on the interface.

19:07 < Max__> If it involves a system call, no.

19:08 <@Smibu> i dont like the idea of multithreading. everything becomes so complex... but if you have done that before, that's different then

19:08 < Ropelli_> yeah well it's that i havent :p just experimenting

19:08 < Ropelli_> its quite a bit easier without the threading yes

19:08 < Max__> Mm, I don't really like MT either, but it's fairly simple in this case.

19:08 < Ropelli_> it really depends how you design the code.. its pos to allow multithreading

19:09 < Max__> Because you've got the input thread constantly updating the input and the physics engine constantly updating the state.

19:10 < Max__> Physics engine just reads input state set by input thread, renderer just reads state set by physics thread.

19:10 < Ropelli_> yeah well phys engine would cache the input results, and the input & drawing thread would cache phys engine results

19:10 < Max__> There's no reverse dependencies.

19:12 < Max__> Just simple atomisation needed: physics_state ps; int c; do{ c = master_physics_state.c; ps = master_physics_state; }while(ps.c != c); render(ps);

19:13 < Ropelli_> hm

19:14 < Ropelli_> id like the idea of 2 separate threads, but dno how much work it would need at the implementation level

19:19 < Max__> Presumably it's not going to be open-source?

19:20 < Ropelli_> ye

19:34 < Max__> Why not?

19:37 < Ropelli_> to prevent cheating

19:38 < Max__> I think unless you either make the physics slightly non-deterministic (globally, at least), as I suggested, or obfuscate the actual operation of everything (which I suspect would require writing the code obfuscatedly—you wouldn't be able to abstract anything into a nice interface), cheating would be fairly easy.

19:38 < Ropelli_> and i dont see any reason to make it opensource

19:39 < Max__> It wouldn't be restricted to particular platforms. People would be able to contribute modifications they want to make.

19:39 < Ropelli_> if want make modifications then ez participate on teh coding group

19:39 < Max__> I'm extremely annoyed that I can't modify my MP3 player.

19:39 < Ropelli_> there arent that many coders in elma community though

19:39 < Max__> There's one tiny thing I want to do with the software, but I can't.

19:39 < Max__> I want to make it so the screen can go blank without locking the device.

19:40 < Max__> If it's easy to participate in the coding group, why make it closed-source?

19:40 < Ropelli_> i dont know if it would go opensource at some point but no reason for that

19:40 < Ropelli_> because theres some people who would take advantage of teh code

19:40 < Max__> Being closed-source would already discourage participation.

19:41 < Max__> Because you can't see what code you'd be getting yourself into.

19:41 < Max__> If you think you might be able to contribute something, you'd have a look at how the code works, hack around a bit with it and eventually do it.

19:41 < Ropelli_> well at this point its easy to participate since any coding hasnt been done et

19:41 < Max__> or just give up and not bother anyone.

19:42 < Ropelli_> yea i know that

19:42 < Ropelli_> but there arent that many coders in elma community

19:43 < Max__> How did darmoed cheat? Did he write his own software?

19:43 < Max__> I think he wrote the first save/load.

19:43 < Max__> Dunno.

19:44 < Max__> It'd be difficult to actually protect from cheating that way.

19:44 < Max__> Because he was meant to be trusted by everyone.

19:44 <@Markku-> another russian player wrote it

19:44 < Max__> Ah.

19:46 < Max__> are you writing this without any of the Elma assembly?

19:46 < Max__> So you've figured out the physics formulae, etc?

19:47 < Max__> Meh, not really any "etc" .. that's basically all there is that's important.

19:47 < Ropelli_> smibu extracted teh physics engine

19:47 < Ropelli_> its disassembled c code

19:47 <@Smibu> the physics routined were decompiled yes

19:47 <@Smibu> routines*

19:48 < Max__> Cool.

19:49 < Max__> imo, you should publish those anyway.

19:50 < Max__> Probably wouldn't help with cheatability, if replay data is encrypted everywhere but in computation.

19:50 < Ropelli_> maybe sometime

19:51 < Ropelli_> compiled teh elmaconsole to teh repository

19:51 < Max__> Compiled code in the repository? :\

19:52 < Ropelli_> haven't gotten used to these, still experimenting some stuff

19:53 < Ropelli_> need teh qmake to easily make visual studio projects and compile to local comp

19:53 < Max__> Anyway, bed.

19:53 < Max__> 'night/yötä

20:04 <@Smibu> hm just noticed that the svn version is kinda old (1.5.1) and newest seems to be 1.7.6

20:05 <@Smibu> but i dont know if that's a problem

20:07 * Max__ has become very disenfranchised with Apache.

20:07 < Max__> All of their software seems to be horribly complex.

20:08 < Max__> God knows how subversion works .. git's just a content-addressable object store.

20:08 < Max__> With some transfer functionality.

20:08 <@Markku-> protip: öitä sounds better alone than yötä ;)

20:08 <@Markku-> alone = without hyviä/hyvää

20:09 < Max__> Ah, right.

20:10 * Max__ menee nukkua.

20:10 <@Markku-> nukkumaan*

20:10 < Max__> kiitos

20:11 <@Markku-> hehe

20:16 < koffing> )

20:16 -!- SveinR [~SveinR@ti0143a340-0385.bb.online.no] has left #new-elma []

20:18 < jonsykkel> the subtle physics change thing seems a good idea, but i duno, i think elma should be "legally" playable offline as well

20:19 < jonsykkel> of course makes it more prone to xiiting but im not sure how secure it really needs to be

20:20 < jonsykkel> obviously old elma security can easily be improved on

20:21 < jonsykkel> not sure how that would work with sources available to anyone, maybe partly opensource?

20:22 < jonsykkel> critical parts being precompiled and source of those being only available to developer team or whatever

20:25 < Ropelli_> YE

20:25 < Ropelli_> oh caps

20:25 < Ropelli_> but why open

20:27 < Ropelli_> jon what do u think about teh multicore support

20:27 < Ropelli_> constant 1k fps for phys engine?

20:30 < jonsykkel> ye agree fisiks own thread

20:30 < jonsykkel> renderink just reading data from that

20:31 < jonsykkel> and ye 1kfps or something

20:31 < Ropelli_> yes.. just thinking if it would get too complex to implement

20:31 < jonsykkel> nah

20:31 < jonsykkel> is simpel

20:32 < Ropelli_> if it can be made mostly transparently then it may be good

20:33 < jonsykkel> guess wed just have to do some interface for threads

20:34 < jonsykkel> afaik have to use win32 api for threads in windows

20:35 < jonsykkel> http://sourceware.org/pthreads-win32/

20:38 <@Smibu> qt supports threading, in case we are going to use qt: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4140189/qthreads-vs-pthreads

20:38 < jonsykkel> yeu

20:40 <@Smibu> but im still really unsure about this multithreading stuff: the time it takes to calculate physics is really negligible compared to what it takes to render graphics

20:40 < jonsykkel> ye isnt really needed

20:41 <@Smibu> and what about those who have old, single-core comps? )

20:42 < jonsykkel> would stil work ofc

20:42 <@Smibu> yeah would work, but slower due to context switching

20:43 < jonsykkel> yes

20:50 < jonsykkel> ez single thread also, litel tedious though

20:51 < jonsykkel> if gonna go by my sugestion of constant physics rate

20:51 < jonsykkel> also slower on 99% of systems

20:52 < Ropelli_> yep

20:52 <@Smibu> is this constant hardcoded, or user-modifiable?

20:52 < Ropelli_> i think modifiable

20:53 < Ropelli_> but ez decide when doing actual coding

20:53 < jonsykkel> the whole idea was that physics would be the same for everyone

20:53 < Ropelli_> yeah

20:53 < jonsykkel> not like it is today

20:53 < Ropelli_> but it would be cool to play around with different phys engine fpses

20:53 <@Smibu> sure, but if the const is hardcoded, tuning not possible (shelf life/hi fly brutal)

20:54 < jonsykkel> yeh

20:54 < Ropelli_> just gotta start coding.. need to setup teh qmake system

20:54 < Ropelli_> totem said he knows something about it

20:54 < jonsykkel> im just imagining some mongo changing fps every balle to take advantage of some vsyncspot

20:55 < jonsykkel> wel have we decided on using qt?

20:55 < Ropelli_> not using

20:55 <@Smibu> nothing is written in stone yet

20:55 < Ropelli_> yep

20:55 < Ropelli_> u checked teh impl doc ?

20:56 < jonsykkel> my?

20:56 < Ropelli_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kHvQeL7-AeEF4NIXbFuS8_pa_j-VCYUGOIMMaB_QwXs/edit this

20:56 < jonsykkel> ye czeched

20:56 < jonsykkel> meant my as in me

20:56 < Ropelli_> u got svn access ?

20:56 < jonsykkel> no

20:56 < Ropelli_> shud ask that from kopa

20:56 < Ropelli_> i know my

20:57 < jonsykkel> ok

20:57 < Ropelli_> ;D:DP

20:57 < jonsykkel> D

20:58 < Ropelli_> and btw, i think boost will be used so some headers will contain <boost\header.h>

20:58 < Ropelli_> and <gl\glfw.h> <gl\opengl.h>

20:58 < Ropelli_> for example

20:58 < jonsykkel> why bost

20:59 < Ropelli_> it just eases the coding

20:59 < jonsykkel> how

21:00 < jonsykkel> talking about those smart pointers you mensioned in the doc?

21:00 < Ropelli_> let me get a page for you

21:01 < Ropelli_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/358533/how-important-is-boost-to-learn-for-c-developers?rq=1

21:01 < Ropelli_> this about boost

21:01 < Ropelli_> and

21:01 < Ropelli_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7654285/useful-features-to-learn-in-boost-for-immediate-use

21:01 < Ropelli_> for useful features

21:01 < Ropelli_> also many other features in there

21:01 < Ropelli_> afk for 30min

21:02 < jonsykkel> donno, i dont really see why wed need it

21:05 < jonsykkel> useful features often comes with a cost

21:12 <@Smibu> seems like boost supports threads too http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_51_0/doc/html/thread.html

21:28 < Ropelli_> yes it doeas

21:28 < Ropelli_> used them couple of times

21:28 < Ropelli_> quite handy

21:29 <@Smibu> what other parts of boost have you used frequently?

21:30 < jonsykkel> im not sure including lots of huge libs for a litle convenience when coding is a mega idea

21:30 <@Smibu> i think boost is not just one huge lib, but collection of smaller ones

21:30 <@Smibu> just read something like that

21:30 < Ropelli_> most of the code is header only

21:30 < Ropelli_> boosts need object files too, and asio aswell

21:30 < Ropelli_> threads* not boosts :D

21:31 < Ropelli_> it also has support for xml and ini files

21:31 < Ropelli_> almost anything you can think about is implemented in boost

21:31 < jonsykkel> which are both sucky formats

21:31 < Ropelli_> wel at least ini ones

21:32 < jonsykkel> ye

21:32 <@Smibu> xml is verbose :)

21:32 < Ropelli_> ye

21:32 <@Smibu> but for me it doesnt matter what format will be used for config files etc

21:32 < jonsykkel> yesh thats no big deal

21:34 < jonsykkel> only good argument for including something like this is portability and if were already using qt blabla you know the rest

21:34 < jonsykkel> only good argument that i can see at least

21:37 < Ropelli_> well but qt and boost servers dif things

21:37 < Ropelli_> serves*

21:38 < jonsykkel> ye, then why exactly use bost

21:39 < Ropelli_> boost geometry, boost pointers, boost xml/ini to file, boost timer, probably boost math too

21:40 < Ropelli_> its like .net runtime classes for c#

21:40 < jonsykkel> what does boost have that the stdlib doesnt have and doesnt take aproximatly 1sec to code yourself

21:41 <@Smibu> some discussion there http://stackoverflow.com/questions/693390/how-do-i-get-started-using-boost

21:41 < Ropelli_> http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_51_0/libs/libraries.htm well just look at this so u get a glance to features boost offers

21:44 < Ropelli_> serialization one good feature ive used

21:44 < Ropelli_> but dno if necessary at this

21:45 <@Smibu> hmm also provides polygon library http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_51_0/libs/polygon/doc/index.htm

21:47 < Ropelli_> it also offers unit test library, never used that one though

21:47 < Ropelli_> totem just suggested to use it

22:22 < Ropelli_> about the svn directory structure, shall i separate the concrete 'elma2' implementation from the framework used to make the exe

22:22 < Ropelli_> trunk folder has now elma2, elmaphys and fw (framework)

23:42 < jonsykkel> if were gona make this teamwork thing work we hev to at least plan very carefuly before starting to code anything i tink

23:44 < jonsykkel> make some class diagram structure maby

23:46 < Ropelli_> yeah gotta make those when more people online

23:46 < Ropelli_> added some utility classes in utils directory

23:46 < jonsykkel> oks

23:46 <@Smibu> hmm agreed about the diagram

23:46 < Ropelli_> i think u should check teh events.h if it will be the backbone for this project

23:47 < jonsykkel> where repo

23:47 < Ropelli_> ask kopa

23:47 < jonsykkel> kopa where repo

23:47 < Ropelli_> :D

23:52 <@Smibu> are those header files in utils from boost lib?

23:53 < Ropelli_> no

23:55 < Ropelli_> i think i need to make more comments to teh functions

23:55 < Ropelli_> quite obscure -> and *

--- Day changed Sun Sep 09 2012

02:37 < Max__> Eh, C++. :\

02:38 * Max__ would write most of it in some higher-level language that doesn't let you do the stupid things C++ does.

02:38 < Max__> but have particular core code: physics, core rendering engine, in C or something.

02:39 < Max__> It would greatly reduce the chance of things like memory leaks and hard-to-trace crashes.

02:39 < Max__> I think you can see that model in things like the source engine.

02:40 < Max__> The games themselves are in some "source" programming language.

02:40 < Max__> and they'll've written the renderer and physics code in something like C or C++.

02:40 < Max__> same with Quake .. that has its own language: quakec.

02:41 < Max__> It's only really called "quake*c*" because it resembles it syntactically.

02:42 < Max__> I think it's garbage collected, no accidental ability to misuse memory locations, etc.

02:43 < Max__> and speed doesn't really matter where it's used, because it's used for writing all the UIs, game modes, etc

02:44 < Max__> when you use C/C++ for everything, you're also more likely to accidentally do something that happens to work only on one platform.

02:44 < Max__> So portability becomes harder.

02:45 < Max__> cf: Flash

02:47 * Max__ dislikes the whole idea of C++ because of all that.

02:47 < Max__> It lets you do all the stupid things C does, but encourages you to write more complex programs.

02:49 < Max__> Oh. Everyone's gone.

02:49 < jonsykkel> oh

02:49 < Louskebab> oh

02:50 < jonsykkel> im was thinkink lua or something for ui/hud etc

02:50 < Max__> Yeah, but it'd be for more than just the ui/hud.

02:51 < jonsykkel> pasibel

02:51 < Max__> The stats management, level/replay loading, everything but physics/rendering/maybe input.

02:51 * Max__ doesn't really like Lua though :\

02:52 < jonsykkel> duno mutch about such languages but i like the pre compilage thing

02:52 < Max__> It's like JavaScript, but syntactically more like Python.

02:52 < Max__> I think.

02:53 < Max__> imo though, a statically typed language would be better.

02:54 < jonsykkel> yes

02:54 < jonsykkel> if gonna use on more than just what i mentioned

02:55 < jonsykkel> but then i think file io and most things really should be done in c++

02:57 < Max__> Mm .. I don't.

02:57 < Max__> Not for replays/levels at least.

02:57 < jonsykkel> why nat?

02:57 < Max__> Maybe for graphics, because it'll be abstracted away into the renderer.

02:57 < Max__> Because it's not necessary.

02:57 < Max__> Levels are nothing.

02:59 < Max__> http://maxdamantus.github.com/recplay/sm80.l92

02:59 < Max__> That's all Smibu80's polygon data.

03:00 < Max__> imo though, it should all be in text.

03:00 < Max__> It might be stored compressed or something.

03:00 < jonsykkel> hmmz

03:00 < Max__> But make it written in an easily parsable text language.

03:00 < Max__> easily = fast

03:01 < Max__> You can parse fast enough in any language.

03:01 < Max__> as long as the language you're parsing is simple enough to have a custom parser.

03:02 < jonsykkel> but why

03:02 < Max__> Earlier this year, I was interested in the generality of binary context-free languages: languages with CF grammers with production rules like: A?B C B

03:03 < Max__> where C is a constant string.

03:03 < Max__> They're actually very useful, and can be parsed really easily.

03:03 < Max__> Just using the shunting yard algorithm to turn them into RPN, then .. well, RPN is extremely easy.

03:04 < Max__> https://raw.github.com/gist/f11d36c457070ba76cca/985e2a90f8eeba0d5f6902f224590cc09f250b99/Parse.hs

03:05 < jonsykkel> i understanded this: (:[])

03:05 < Max__> https://raw.github.com/gist/24bd1eeff5e5a3d46b6d/c0cd83cd321b0b3dc1a8d4d159258744aff87e6f/gistfile1.txt

03:05 < Max__> That's the language it parses.

03:06 < Max__> It all consists of binary and unary operators.

03:06 < Max__> if n <= 0 then return b

03:07 < Max__> (if n <= 0) then (return b)

03:07 < Max__> (if (n <= 0)) then (return b)

03:07 < Max__> "then" and "<=" are binary, "if" and "return" are unary.

03:08 < jonsykkel> cool

03:08 < Max__> The code up to `toTree = tree . rpn . tokens` is the real parser.

03:09 < Max__> The rest is just converting the parse tree to something the rest of the program understands.

03:10 < Max__> because it's in a form like: Binary "then" (Unary "if" (Binary "<=" (String "n", String "0"))), (Unary "return" (String "n"))

03:11 < jonsykkel> haskell contains many interesting faces

03:11 < Max__> Like SPJ?

03:11 < jonsykkel> what is spj

03:11 < Max__> Simon Peyton-Jones.

03:12 < jonsykkel> ah

03:12 < jonsykkel> yes amongst others

03:12 < Max__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Simon_Peyton_Jones_01.jpg ? that guy

03:12 < jonsykkel> verily

03:12 * Max__ finds that photo hilarious.

03:12 < Max__> It was really surprising hearing him speak on a Youtube video.

03:22 < Max__> To test the physics modification idea: run a double-blind test on hoylers.

03:22 < Max__> Get the player to indicate whether he thinks the physics are modified or not.

03:22 < Max__> (on each run)

03:22 < jonsykkel> :D

03:23 < jonsykkel> that shouldnt be a problem

03:26 < Max__> The idea probably wouldn't be very useful for preventing cheating on things like Smibu80.

03:26 < Max__> Because you can play that safely.

03:27 < Max__> so the alterations would be insignificant enough to play it back again.

03:27 < Max__> But it'd probably prevent you from loading runs after intricate moves, pipes, etc.

03:28 < jonsykkel> hehe

03:28 < jonsykkel> i dont think key pres playback will pose to much of a threat

03:30 < Max__> What about something that interacts with the physics interface?

03:30 < jonsykkel> yeah thought about that

03:30 < jonsykkel> dunno

03:31 < Max__> What does save/load do? Just program state management?

03:31 < jonsykkel> ye i guess just memory copy

03:45 < Max__> 12:05:34 < jonsykkel> i understanded this: (:[])

03:45 < Max__> (:[]) :: a -> [a]

03:45 < Max__> It turns a value into a one-length list with that value in it.

03:46 < Max__> (what I just typed above is actually the type .. types are really revealing of function in Haskell)

03:47 < Max__> But (:) is the cons operator, in case you happen to know the term from Lisp or something.

03:47 < Max__> and [] the empty list.

03:47 < Max__> elem : list = [elem] ++ list

03:47 < Max__> 1:[2, 3, 4] = [1, 2, 3, 4]

03:49 < Max__> (:[]) is partial application of the cons operator.

03:49 < Max__> in Haskell you can refer to binary operators with zero, one or two arguments.

03:49 < Max__> (*) is just a function: let mult = (*) in mult 5 4

03:49 < Max__> That's 9.

03:50 < Max__> and (*5) is a function that fills in the left side with its argument then does the multiplication.

03:50 < Max__> (so it's a function that multiplies by 5)

03:51 < Max__> let blah = (*5) in blah 4

03:51 < Max__> = 20

04:00 < jonsykkel> i see

04:18 < Max__> What would the legality be of Elma 2?

04:18 < Max__> Presumably EOL is somewhat illegal.

04:20 < Louskebab> illegal but balazs doesn't care

04:20 < Louskebab> i'm thinking he doesn't want to say anything approving

04:20 < Max__> Mm.

04:20 < Louskebab> just in case someone starts to make money or something

04:20 < Louskebab> then he cane just say he never approved of it

04:21 < Max__> The "decompiled" C code should probably be understood and rewritten.

04:21 < Max__> rather than just copied in.

04:22 < jonsykkel> tried to compile with gcc and ended up with this http://kopasite.net/up/x3095k69h662nmv/ptest02.rec

04:22 < jonsykkel> http://kopasite.net/up/0x3uv021uen8c71/ptest02.lev

04:22 < Max__> Two URLs?

04:22 < Max__> oh, one's a lev.

04:23 < jonsykkel> yes.

04:23 < Max__> Nice.

04:23 < Max__> Can I see the code?

04:27 < jonsykkel> maybe ask kopaka to add you to the repo

07:57 < Jappe2> what is the name of this game?

08:00 < Max__> Szakaszokfelsorolasreset-ben

09:55 < Max__> http://ptpimg.me/807223.png

10:21 <@Smibu> rofl jon :)

10:22 <@Smibu> i wonder which part of the code doesnt work for you

10:25 <@Smibu> did you have to modify the code at all to make it compile in gcc?

10:43 < Max__> It runs on Linux when compiled with gcc.

10:43 < Max__> afk

10:44 < Max__> I'll try with my mingw-gcc (Linux host) and maybe see if jon can run that, when I get back.

10:44 <@Smibu> Max__: but does it run *correctly*? :)

10:44 < Max__> I think so.

10:44 <@Smibu> what compiler version?

10:44 < Max__> It looks normal.

10:44 < Max__> g++ (Gentoo 4.4.4-r2 p1.2, pie-0.4.5) 4.4.4

10:45 < Max__> Back in ~20 minutes.

10:45 <@Smibu> oki

11:12 < Max__> $ wine a.exe max001.lev -r

11:12 < Max__> Elasto Mania command line version

11:12 < Max__> Too long lev name!

11:12 < Max__> lol

11:13 < Max__> Oh, not meant to have .lev

11:15 < Max__> $ wine a.exe ptest02

11:15 < Max__> Elasto Mania command line version

11:15 < Max__> Time: 1109

11:16 <@Smibu> yeah that time sounds correct

11:19 < Max__> btw, did you see my commentary on C++? :p

11:21 <@Smibu> yea i read that

11:35 < Max__> Aren't really many good programming languages though, imo.

11:35 < Max__> Lots of reasonable scripting languages.

11:35 < Max__> Wonder what Go's like.

11:36 < Max__> Haskell and Java have decent type systems.

11:36 < Max__> Especially Haskell.

11:36 < Max__> Java's horrible in a lot of ways.

11:37 < Max__> (partly in its type system—I suspect the only reason why it's still not completely typesafe is that it emphasises on backwards compatilibility)

11:38 < Ropelli_> should we use boosts geometry for points etc ?

11:38 < Max__> What for?

11:39 < Ropelli_> well it has already made algorithms

11:40 < Ropelli_> they are guaranteed to be faster than own solutions though

11:40 < Ropelli_> at least

11:41 < Max__> Yeah, but what geometric operations would you need?

11:41 < Max__> Maybe in an editor.

11:42 < Ropelli_> well for example if we use boosts point2d thoroughly the project it would be easy to use the algorithms boost provides when needed

11:42 < Ropelli_> no need to make wrapper

11:45 < Max__> What if you never end up using them?

11:46 < Max__> Just more stuff to load into memory.

11:46 < jonsykkel> Smibu: swapped the i64/ui64 suffixes with LL/ULL

11:46 < Max__> The what?

11:47 < jonsykkel> some microsoft way of writing long long literals apparently

11:47 < Max__> Not in the code you gave me?

11:48 < jonsykkel> yeah sent after i made those changes

11:48 < Max__> Ah.

11:48 < Max__> Yeah, and to compile it for Linux you need to remove the __fastcalls

11:48 < Max__> and define _itoa

11:49 < Max__> Apparently it's some Windows thing.

11:49 < Max__> Dunno what the point is.

11:49 < Max__> #ifndef __WIN32__

11:49 < Max__> void _itoa(int val, char *buf, int base){ /* assume base = 10 */ sprintf(buf, "%i", val);

11:49 < Max__> }

11:49 < Max__> #endif

11:50 < Ropelli_> actually max those points itself doesnt add any overhead to exe size

11:50 < Ropelli_> it doesnt link anythign

11:51 < Max__> Ropelli_: it needs to load some external library into memory.

11:51 < Ropelli_> its header only

11:51 < Max__> (if it's not loaded already)

11:51 < Max__> Library header?

11:51 < Max__> No. When you run it.

11:51 < Ropelli_> it compiles to exe

11:51 < Max__> Yes, but it's dynamically linked to some boost library somewhere.

11:52 < Ropelli_> no

11:52 < Ropelli_> static link

11:52 < Max__> Oh.

11:52 < Ropelli_> and it doesnt even static link any object files since its header only

12:00 <@Smibu> jon oki

12:15 < Max__> jonsykkel: want to try my exe?

12:15 < jonsykkel> yeah

12:16 < Max__> https://gist.github.com/raw/df9918e47b0921b20fa1/e21326e8a3feab74050677b8a8d126c8d2b88c34/a.exe

12:18 <@Smibu> jonsykkel: what gcc version you have?

12:18 < jonsykkel> works

12:18 < jonsykkel> some old, installed new yesterday before went to bed

12:18 < jonsykkel> gonna try that now

12:18 <@Smibu> ok

12:18 <@Smibu> newest mingw is 4.7.0 i guess

12:20 < Max__> That was with -static

12:20 < jonsykkel> yep works with new version

12:23 < Ropelli_> jonsykel trying mingw

12:23 < Ropelli_> `?

12:23 < jonsykkel> y

12:24 < Ropelli_> you should use sum --strip command to make teh out exe smaller

12:24 < Max__> Maybe you were using gcc3 or something.

12:24 < Ropelli_> mine was about 500kb when compiled statically with iostream

12:24 < Max__> i686-mingw32-strip

12:25 < Max__> Stripping is lame.

12:25 < Ropelli_> why

12:25 < Max__> You lose symbols.

12:25 < Ropelli_> oke

12:27 <@ville_j> helloes, what's up?????????

12:27 <@ville_j> you already started coding things?

12:28 <@ville_j> very many talk

12:28 <@Smibu> :) revision number on svn is 7 ! dunno what has been updated there though, and by whom

12:28 <@Smibu> ropelli has done some testing at least

12:28 < Ropelli_> ive done al actualy

12:29 < Ropelli_> added some utility headers

12:29 <@ville_j> oh ok

12:30 <@ville_j> where is this svn, cane get access?

12:30 < Max__> Presumably you'd want to figure out the algorithms behind the physics bits.

12:30 < Max__> and throw everything else out.

12:30 < Max__> It's all non-portable, etc.

12:30 < Max__> Hard to trust that it'll continue to work with compilers.

12:31 < Ropelli_> ye someone should modify that

12:31 < jonsykkel> agreed

12:31 <@Smibu> well, it works with visual c++ and gcc :)

12:31 < Ropelli_> teh code is in repo

12:32 < Max__> Smibu: on all 32bit x86 CPUs?

12:32 < Max__> For one, it doesn't work in 64bit.

12:32 <@Smibu> hehe, have only tested with my CPU, you're right

12:33 < Max__> It happened to compile.

12:33 < Max__> but an assertion in malloc failed.

12:33 < Max__> on Linux (glibc), at least.

12:34 <@Smibu> oh, at which line?

12:35 < Max__> Elasto Mania command line version

12:35 < Max__> ==1842== Invalid write of size 4

12:35 < Max__> ==1842== at 0x410A40: ClearPoint(pt*) (math2d.cpp:69)

12:35 < Max__> ==1842== by 0x411742: recctor(rec*) (replay.cpp:166)

12:35 < Max__> ==1842== by 0x410712: main (main.cpp:4263)

12:35 < Max__> It occurs a bunch of times though.

12:36 < Max__> (in various locations)

12:38 < Ropelli_> its kinda hacky code ;D

12:38 <@Smibu> 99% of it is just decompiler output

12:39 <@Smibu> and i made it compilable with a powershell script :)

12:39 <@Smibu> then modified only a couple of places manually

12:39 <@Smibu> and wrote the main() functiom

12:39 < Ropelli_> you named the functions ?

12:39 <@Smibu> yea, in IDA

12:40 < Ropelli_> oke

12:46 < Ropelli_> does mingw and other compilers support the .. notation in #include definition

12:46 < Ropelli_> so it goes one directory up

12:49 < Max__> Would you want to use that? :\

12:50 < Max__> I can't imagine why anyone would think that'd be a useful feature of a compiler.

12:50 < Max__> But .. MSVC already seems to be totally insane.

12:51 < Max__> s/of a compiler/for a compiler/

12:51 < Max__> (blaming whoever designed the compiler, not the person who stumbled across the feature)

12:56 <@Smibu> ville_j: ask credentials from kopaka

12:56 <@Smibu> if you haven't yet

13:00 < Max__> player1rec = (rec *)operator new(0x88);

13:00 < Max__> That'll be it.

13:00 < Max__> I guess sizeof (rec) != 0x88 on x86_64

13:00 * Max__ doesn't really understand that notation though.

13:01 < Max__> Is operator new(0x88) like malloc(0x88)?

13:02 < Max__> main.cpp:4262: error: invalid conversion from ‘void*’ to ‘rec*’

13:02 < Max__> Eh, C++.

13:04 < Max__> Everything's allocated with a hard-coded size :(

13:09 <@Smibu> yea that line could be rewritten as player1rec = new rec; and it should work fine

13:10 * Max__ has been changing them to `operator new(sizeof *player1rec)`, etc

13:10 < Max__> Wonder if the pack pragmas can be removed after this.

13:11 <@Smibu> the pack pragmas can be removed if there are no strange struct member references in the code

13:12 <@Smibu> im not sure if there are any such left, tried to remove them

13:12 < Max__> How will you know for sure there aren't any left?

13:12 < Max__> Answer: oops, it's already in C++.

13:12 <@Smibu> well i mean something like this: ((char *)&v173.x + 4)

13:12 < Max__> Yeah, I know.

13:13 < Max__> any sane language that is used for what C++ is used for won't let you do that.

13:14 < Max__> for some reason, C++ just adds a crapload of abstraction features onto a language that does.

13:25 < Max__> return (unksub3 *)((char *)v3 + 8 * v6 - 8);

13:26 < Max__> return v3 + v6 - 1;

13:26 < Max__> Wait, what?

13:26 < Max__> v3 is unksub2 *

13:26 < Max__> I think it's only -sub3 that has size 8 on 32bit though.

13:27 < Max__> Yay, didn't segfault.

13:27 < Max__> Got this instead:

13:27 < Max__> INTERNAL ERROR:

13:27 < Max__> topolkillerekelore-ben hezagos kerek tomb!

13:27 < Max__> in killer topology something dunno

13:28 <@Smibu> hmm

13:28 < Max__> if ( !*(int *)((char *)&currentLev->levId + v4 * 4) )

13:28 < Max__> InternalError("topolkillerekelore-ben hezagos kerek tomb!", 0, 0);

13:28 < Max__> Indeed. More of them.

13:29 <@Smibu> heh yea

13:30 < Max__> level *v1; // edi@1

13:30 < Max__> v9 = *(levobj **)((char *)v1 + v8 - 4);

13:30 < Max__> Yep .. fun.

13:30 < Max__> Haven't changed a struct one yet.

13:31 < Max__> v8 = 1220;

13:32 < Max__> Somewhere in the middle of .polygons.

13:33 < Max__> .polygons + 133, I guess.

13:33 < Max__> - hmm

13:33 <@Smibu> no it's a pointer to levobj

13:33 < Max__> v1?

13:34 < Max__> Oh, you mean it must be in .objects

13:34 <@Smibu> looking at the code arount lines 3500, it looks correct. just need to polish it

13:34 <@Smibu> around*

13:37 < Max__> Oh, .polygons is a pointer to an array.

13:37 <@Smibu> yeah

13:38 <@Smibu> or actually array of pointers

13:38 < Max__> er, yeah.

13:38 <@Smibu> cdecl.org if unsure ;)

13:38 < Max__> Mm, just said it wrong.

13:38 < Max__> Wonder if cdecl uses `cdecl`

13:38 < Max__> I think I remember figuring out it doesn't.

13:38 < Max__> Because cdecl fails .. sometimes.

13:40 < Max__> cdecl> explain int f(int (int));

13:40 < Max__> syntax error

13:40 * Max__ likes C type notation.

13:41 < Max__> cdecl> declare f as function (function (int) returning int) returning int

13:41 < Max__> int f(int (int ))

13:41 < Max__> Can't explain that!

13:42 < Max__> Oh no, the cdecl site fails too.

13:47 < Max__> Time: 1109

13:47 < Max__> Ahah!

13:47 < Max__> Running on 64-bit.

13:47 < Max__> Wait, nvm.

13:50 < Max__> Runs kind of if I comment out the internal errors.

13:50 < Max__> Just doesn't find the start position.

13:50 < Max__> so drops him at .. presumably 0,0

14:02 < Max__> I think I've almost got it.

14:19 < Ropelli_> ok made test main.cpp in repo, so pls check it compiles without any errors

14:19 < Ropelli_> and without warnings

14:20 < Ropelli_> its /trunk/elma2/temp/main.cpp

14:25 < Ropelli_> compile it with static runtime btw

14:27 < Ropelli_> i can write install txt for teh environment if cant get teh main.cpp working

14:28 < Jappe2> Smibu what is name of this game?

14:29 <@Smibu> that hasnt been decided yet. for now we're just referring to it as "Elma 2"

14:30 < Max__> Ahah!

14:30 < Max__> It ran, with apparently the correct time.

14:30 < Xarthok> if physics don't change at all then i think elma 1.5 or something is more appropriate

14:30 < Max__> Yep, looks working.

14:31 < Max__> I don't think so.

14:31 < Xarthok> physics + mechanics

14:31 < Max__> It's 2, because it's basically a complely different system.

14:31 < totem-> it's not same game, it's a clone; thus difficult to use same name with version number. at least elma 2 seems different enough

14:31 < Max__> If you rewrite something with the same functionality, it'd either have a different name, or take a whole new number.

14:32 < Max__> But it sounds like people are going to use some of the old system :(

14:33 < Max__> (ie, recompile the decompiled code)

14:33 < Xarthok> are there any other cases where a game developer abandons the community and then its up to the community to further improve the game?

14:33 < Xarthok> or rewrite it actually

14:33 < Xarthok> because closed source

14:34 < Max__> https://gist.github.com/cdfb9d595f3298adff9d

14:35 < Max__> Isn't this one going to be closed source?

14:35 < Xarthok> of course

14:35 < Max__> and yes: there's another case in Elma.

14:35 < Max__> Though it wasn't really abandonment.

14:36 < Max__> Well, one advantage of having it open-source is that if the developer[s] get lazy, other people can improve it.

14:36 < Max__> I doubt Balazs decided to *abandon* the community.

14:36 < Max__> sz zs .. dunno.

14:37 < Max__> Anyway, the diff above is for x86_64

14:37 < Max__> Most of it's in level

14:37 < Max__> Hopefully you'll at least throw that out.

14:38 < Max__> It's horrible, and there are other implementations of level readers.

14:38 * Max__ has written at least two, slightly less messy ones.

14:44 < Ropelli_> max wane participate on teh project ?

14:45 < Max__> Dunno. Maybe.

14:46 < Max__> tbh, I don't really like the sound of how it'll be done so far :(

14:46 < Max__> It shouldn't be based around decompiled code.

14:47 < Max__> You'd figure out the relevant logic behind the decompiled code.

14:47 < Ropelli_> its pretty much the same if using decompiled code since the game will be a clone

14:48 < Max__> Why would you make a clone?

14:48 < Ropelli_> the old one is just fine

14:48 < Max__> Then what's the new one for?

14:48 < Ropelli_> its easier to add features if needed

14:48 < Ropelli_> no need to hax

14:49 < Ropelli_> and dno, theres a feature list for new things added to this one

14:49 < Ropelli_> so maybe a bit dif

14:50 < Max__> I also happen to basically disagree with the existence of C++.

14:50 < Ropelli_> why

14:50 < Max__> Because you shouldn't be exposed to what C exposes you to in OOP.

14:51 < Ropelli_> c++ isnt only oop

14:51 < Max__> or at any basically any level of programming that C++ encourages.

14:51 < Max__> (other than the level of C—in which case you should probably be programming in C)

14:52 < Ropelli_> its kinda useless to code in c in bigger projects

14:52 < Ropelli_> its more like system code clanguage

14:53 < Max__> Exactly.

14:53 < Max__> Why does C++ support that shit?

14:53 <@Smibu> backward compatibility, probably.

14:53 < Max__> No, probably not.

14:53 < Ropelli_> yes thats one case

14:53 < Ropelli_> but you dont need to code at that low level in c++

14:54 < Max__> It's because that's simply what you did when you programmed when C++ was invented.

14:54 < Max__> and since then, C++ has become popular.

14:54 < Max__> But you *can*

14:54 < totem-> at first C++ compilers were C compilers modified to support C++ syntax

14:54 < totem-> so Smibu is right

14:55 < Max__> You can, and probably also often *DO* deal with things like pointer arithmetic.

14:55 < Max__> totem-: no, because the point of C++ wasn't, I don't think, *to* have backwards-compatilibility.

14:55 < Ropelli_> smibu you tested teh main.cpp ?

14:55 < totem-> wasn't a point but a mean

14:55 <@Smibu> ropelli not yet, should first dl glfw lib and boost thread lib

14:56 < Max__> totem-: it was simply a consequence of building on top of the language of the day.

14:56 <@Smibu> but i dont see why it wouldnt work

14:56 < Ropelli_> you can use boost 1.50 installer

14:56 < Ropelli_> just make sure to install boost as static, and runtime both static and dynamic

14:56 < Max__> totem-: if he had had an idea of what C++ would've been like now, I'd imagine he'd've created a *new* language.

14:57 <@Smibu> ok

14:57 < Max__> totem-: because, as you suggested, C++ just started as some extensions to C.

14:57 < Max__> "C with classes"

14:57 < Max__> Sounds reasonable.

14:57 < Max__> Once it gets beyond that, it's not really worth being related to C, imo.

14:57 < totem-> this is another discussion

14:57 < Max__> and even at that point, it would optimally not be.

14:58 < Max__> but it was difficult for it not to be.

14:58 < totem-> C++ is not really bad

14:58 < Max__> I disagree.

14:58 < totem-> well ok !

14:59 <@Smibu> hmm wait.. boost doesnt support vs 2012, or mingw?

15:01 <@Smibu> i see install options only for vs 2003, 2005, 2008, 2010

15:05 < Max__> I do have ideas on how resources should be structured though.

15:06 < Max__> (and distributed)

15:06 < Max__> (and potentially stored)

15:07 < Max__> I think it's wrong to have, as it has atm, each level and each record stored in its own file.

15:08 < Max__> rec*

15:12 < Ropelli_> well i think boost supports 2012 but teh installer doesnt

15:13 < Ropelli_> max if pos teh decompiled phys engi could be a bit more deobfuscated

15:14 < Max__> Mm. It should really be fully deobfuscated and rewritten, imo.

15:14 < Max__> That way you're actually writing it from scratch, to a specification.

15:14 < Ropelli_> yep

15:14 <@Smibu> its not hard to "deobfuscate" it, just needs some work

15:14 < Ropelli_> but who could do that

15:15 < totem-> imo too. but we may loose the identical results we seem to obtain for now

15:15 < Ropelli_> yep

15:15 < Max__> If you lose the identical results, you did it wrong.

15:15 < Ropelli_> every little thing should/could be made it takes loads of time

15:15 < totem-> maybe, maybe not. Sometimes it's just a matter of compiler option

15:15 < Ropelli_> if someone wants to make it, then make

15:15 <@Smibu> btw, are the devs forced to use the same compiler? or does cmake handle that kind of stuff?

15:16 < totem-> cmake just handle Makefiles

15:16 < Ropelli_> smibu, i just created own solution and create all source files to teh local repo

15:16 < Ropelli_> in vs 20120

15:16 < Ropelli_> 2010

15:17 < totem-> please no vs file on svn

15:17 <@Smibu> hmm ok

15:17 < totem-> ?

15:17 < Ropelli_> yeah there wont be any solutions files in svn

15:17 < Ropelli_> only source

15:17 <@Smibu> totem using mingw?

15:17 < totem-> no, vs on windows

15:17 <@Smibu> ah ok

15:17 < Ropelli_> i just use visual studio locally, and make visual studio create source files in local repository

15:18 < totem-> I see Ropelli. But what about project options ? You have yours, stored in vcproj files. But maybe Smibu have other options. This is too arbitrary

15:19 < totem-> we need to have common compilation options and project setting

15:19 < totem-> i must go now; bye

15:19 -!- totem- [~totem-@ARennes-555-1-110-100.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #new-elma []

15:20 < Ropelli_> aight

15:23 < Ropelli_> well we could set up more specific compilation options at some point, but now its really only about using the static runtime

15:23 < Ropelli_> and have few defines made, such as _DEBUG

15:36 <@Smibu> i will try to build this boost for vs 2012 soon, just downloaded the sources

15:37 < Ropelli_> youre gonna build boost manually ?

15:52 < Max__> Maybe I should make a competing Elma.

15:52 < Max__> (friendly competition)

15:54 < Max__> It'd probably be in Haskell or something.

15:55 < onla> you will win

15:55 < onla> if you make ice surface

15:56 < onla> or have across and elma profile bikes

15:56 < Max__> I wouldn't make ice surface.

15:56 < Max__> I'd probably get rid of gravity.

15:56 < onla> and make the bike topspeed be a bit higher

15:56 < Max__> (changing of gravity, that is)

15:57 < Max__> No.

15:57 < Max__> Is there a top speed?

15:57 < onla> not accelerating faster, but on long straight, a bit faster bike would make it formula

15:57 < onla> hmm

15:57 < jonsykkel> acceleration stops working at some speed at least

15:57 < onla> hmm, maybe a bit faster acc on very high speed .. yea i guess it accs quite long

15:57 < Ropelli_> jon tested main cpp ?

15:57 < jonsykkel> no

15:57 < onla> just so slowly

15:58 < Ropelli_> oke

15:58 < Ropelli_> maybe should start working on teh project soon

15:58 < Ropelli_> everything quite planned already

15:58 < jonsykkel> not really =d

15:58 < Ropelli_> what missing

15:58 < Max__> btw: someone working on the code might want to make my 64-bit modifications.

15:58 < jonsykkel> everybadi disagreeing on most things it seems

15:58 < Louskebab> sense.exe

15:59 < Max__> Wonder if it'll run in 64-bit on Windows.

15:59 < onla> and suspension tuning

15:59 < Ropelli_> e.g what ?

15:59 < Ropelli_> and max why 64bit support?

15:59 < Max__> Portability.

15:59 < onla> then on very very long level like 3km straight, then comes a loop, with very tight suspension you can make the loop without head going to the wall because of the pressure on high speed

15:59 < Max__> Actually, it makes things slightly more readable.

16:00 < Ropelli_> when its not compiled to 64bit

16:01 < Max__> I should really have changed those `x = «pointer offset»; do { ptr = (char *)otherptr + x; «stuff» } while(x < «bigger pointer offset»);` to for loops.

16:01 < Max__> But at least they're not in terms of pointer offsets.

16:01 < Ropelli_> something useful would be to fix those hax things

16:01 < onla> like 10 different suspensions. then on rec you can see what suspension was used, so if someone doesn't want to spread his WR rec on a level, other people have to keep guessing did he use elma or across profile (head further back) and what was his suspension level (1-10)

16:02 < Max__> onla: just wondering .. are you being serious?

16:02 < onla> yes

16:02 < onla> this is not making it too much like something else than elma, just couple new variables

16:02 < Max__> I wouldn't change the physics, except perhaps to fix the vsync problem.

16:02 < Max__> if possible.

16:02 < Max__> (without affecting any other gameplay)

16:02 < Ropelli_> max vsync problem goes away if phys engine runs at fixed fps

16:03 < onla> that is what those other guys are doing, would be niec to have a little more gaudy versio

16:03 < Max__> Ah.

16:03 < onla> you make another elma clone then they all will look like just another elma 1.5

16:03 < jonsykkel> real????

16:03 < Max__> Other guys? X-Moto?

16:03 < onla> ropelli and pals

16:03 < Max__> But X-Moto physics are lame.

16:03 < onla> i'm not talking about that game

16:04 < jonsykkel> xmoto wheels ar elastic (

16:04 < Max__> Oh, you mean other guys like Smibu?

16:04 < onla> the project here

16:04 < Max__> Right.

16:05 < onla> x-moto rotation is bullcrap which mostly makes the game lame

16:05 < Max__> My version would also be highly portable.

16:05 < Max__> With backup softfpu stuff.

16:05 < onla> elma rotation is perfect

16:05 < onla> that I wouldn't want to change either

16:05 < onla> except that alovolt thing, donno about that

16:06 < Max__> Either that, or I'd just make my own number representations.

16:07 * Max__ wonders how the JavaScript implementation of Haskell is going.

16:07 * Max__ already has rendering code in JavaScript.

16:08 < Max__> ( http://maxdamantus.github.com/recplay/play47.htm in case anyone's interested and hasn't seen it )

16:08 < Max__> (the head positions are wrong)

16:10 < Ropelli_> nice

16:12 <@Smibu> ok.. building boost atm

16:14 < Max__> Smibu's level: http://maxdamantus.github.com/recplay/play.htm

16:16 <@Smibu> sky scrolling in wrong direction :)

16:16 < Max__> Yeah, couldn't be bothered with that at the time.

16:16 < Max__> Just had to make it move so it didn't look awkward.

16:19 < Max__> Hmm .. wonder if it should depend on OpenGL.

16:20 < Max__> I actually started playing Elma because I didn't know how to make OpenGL work properly on Gentoo.

16:20 < Max__> X-Moto was too laggy.

16:20 < Max__> and Elma happened to play fine in Wine.

16:22 < Max__> Maybe something like Cairo would be a better backend.

16:23 < Max__> That's more portable; it can use an OpenGL backend, or a DirectFB backend, or just a normal framebuffer backend (probably slow).

16:23 < Max__> OpenGL is kind of demanding because there's no real 2D environment.

16:24 < Max__> When you create 2D games, you're really just orthographically displaying a plane in 3D.

16:24 < Max__> (video cards don't mind that, of course)

16:25 < Max__> Software renderers and interfaces like DirectFB do.

16:26 < Max__> Would a new Elma have antialiasing of the level's edges and the bike's wheels?

16:26 < Max__> Probably as an option.

16:26 < Max__> I'd probably leave it disabled.

16:29 < Ropelli_> ye

16:29 < Ropelli_> dno if should make drawing interface for elma

16:29 < Ropelli_> people who know opengl well enough would make

16:31 < Ropelli_> i do know the basics, matrices and that stuff, but would be nice to have someone with indepth knowledge

16:31 < Max__> I probably know about that.

16:31 < Max__> But I haven't used it in a while.

16:32 < Ropelli_> basics ?

16:32 < Max__> and probably matrices.

16:32 < Ropelli_> ye

16:32 < Max__> Actually, don't think I've used matrices in OpenGL directly.

16:32 < Max__> but I've used matrices elsewhere since.

16:32 < Ropelli_> well matrices for rotating object

16:32 < Ropelli_> ye

16:32 < Max__> (for spatial transformations)

16:33 < Max__> https://raw.github.com/gist/6caad9b63d54642e8918/29b55ac2c3050b67314b1913601bd19713108ac3/f.png wrote that renderer in Java

16:34 < Max__> Mm .. those scanlines were fixed.

16:35 < Max__> Interestingly, that manages to do probably ~20fps at 1920x1080.

16:35 < Max__> It's all drawn in horizontal scan lines.

16:38 < Max__> 24932 polygons.

16:38 < Max__> (triangles)

16:51 < Ropelli_> smibu uve built boost already

16:51 < Ropelli_> ?

16:51 < koffing> is this long projject

16:51 < Ropelli_> gues so

16:51 <@Smibu> ropelli, still compiling :)

16:52 < Ropelli_> oh

16:52 < koffing> many mans coding?

16:53 <@Smibu> well like 5-7

16:53 < Ropelli_> yeah.. they need to setup the environment first though

16:57 <@Smibu> ropelli_ using AnkhSVN plugin for VS?

16:57 < Ropelli_> tried it but seems it supports .net projects only

16:57 <@Smibu> oh, didnt know

16:57 < Max__> Maybe fewer when they jump over to my project! Muahaha!

16:57 < Ropelli_> you can just import the existing code files to your own visual studio solution

16:58 < Max__> (I don't want anyone atm though)

16:58 < Max__> Want to experiment with some design ideas.

16:58 < Max__> but have to do boring assignment atm.

17:00 < Max__> I think things tend to work better when you just have one guy doing pretty much everything at first.

17:01 < Max__> Maybe multiple people collaborating ideas, but such that one single person understands them all and can see how they fit together.

17:02 < Ropelli_> i was thinking that we'll make a framework first, and then everyone could basicly just focus on their own thing

17:02 < Max__> So he sets up a framework that'll support development of everything else .. major design issues are likely to become apparent there.

17:02 < Ropelli_> one for drawing, another physics etc etc

17:02 < Max__> Yep.

17:02 < Max__> But you'd need to just have one person make the framework.

17:03 < Ropelli_> yep but its nice still nice if everyone has the basic idea whats the framework like

17:06 <@Smibu> ok boost compiled now

17:06 < Ropelli_> you got teh gldw ?

17:06 <@Smibu> not yet, i dl that now

17:07 < Ropelli_> ok you may need to build that yourself aswell

17:07 < Ropelli_> make sure to build with static runtim

17:07 <@Smibu> yes i just noticed :) well it should be faster to build that

17:07 <@Smibu> ye

17:07 < Ropelli_> glfw has visual studio solution already

17:08 < Ropelli_> build output as *.lib

17:19 <@Smibu> ok built now, got GLFW.lib as output

17:20 < Ropelli_> you should also make debug and release version of the static library

17:20 < Ropelli_> e.g, debug glfw is glfw-d.lib and release one is glfw.lib

17:20 < Ropelli_> then you link those se separately in the project

17:22 <@Smibu> yeah

17:26 <@Smibu> for some reason vs cant find glfw.h although i put it in same dir as main.cpp

17:26 <@Smibu> ok got it now

17:32 < Ropelli_> compiles ?

17:36 <@Smibu> problems with glfw

17:37 <@Smibu> 3 unresolved externals

17:38 <@Smibu> it doesnt recognize any of the glfw calls

17:40 < Ropelli_> you need to link the glfw.lib

17:40 < Ropelli_> in your project

17:40 < Ropelli_> settings -> link -> additional depencies -> there should be library files

17:58 <@Smibu> tried to put all the necessary dirs in "Additional Library Directories" but getting same errors

17:58 < totem-> paste error please

18:01 <@Smibu> 1>------ Build started: Project: ElmaTest, Configuration: Debug Win32 ------

18:01 <@Smibu> 1>main.obj : error LNK2019: unresolved external symbol _glfwInit referenced in function "public: void __thiscall random_thread::operator()(void)const " (??Rrandom_thread@@QBEXXZ)

18:01 <@Smibu> 1>main.obj : error LNK2019: unresolved external symbol _glfwOpenWindow referenced in function "public: void __thiscall random_thread::operator()(void)const " (??Rrandom_thread@@QBEXXZ)

18:01 <@Smibu> 1>main.obj : error LNK2019: unresolved external symbol _glfwSetWindowTitle referenced in function "public: void __thiscall random_thread::operator()(void)const " (??Rrandom_thread@@QBEXXZ)

18:01 <@Smibu> 1>C:\Omat\VS Projects\ElmaTest\Debug\ElmaTest.exe : fatal error LNK1120: 3 unresolved externals

18:01 <@Smibu> ========== Build: 0 succeeded, 1 failed, 0 up-to-date, 0 skipped ==========

18:09 < Ropelli_> i can send you my glfw lib

18:09 < Ropelli_> its compiled with visual studio 2010 tho

18:10 <@Smibu> rofl, got it working now

18:10 < Ropelli_> rebuilt`?

18:10 <@Smibu> this one helped http://shawndeprey.blogspot.fi/2012/02/setting-up-glfw-in-visual-studio-2010.html

18:10 < Ropelli_> it sometimes fails if not clean rebuild

18:13 < Ropelli_> you built static glfw ?

18:13 <@Smibu> yes imo, i checked that the config was set to static in GLFW

18:15 < Max__> http://old.moposite.com/stuff_illegality.php

18:15 < Max__> Is onlainari onla?

18:16 < Ropelli_> smibu teh main.cpp compiled without warnings ?

18:16 * Max__ fixed main.cpp to compile without warnings.

18:16 < Max__> in gcc at least.

18:16 < Ropelli_> :P

18:16 < Ropelli_> thought it may emit some warnings

18:16 <@Smibu> no warnings yes

18:17 < Ropelli_> max could you tell what the warning was

18:17 <@Smibu> hmm just realised i need to do config for "Release" build too

18:17 < Max__> What warning?

18:17 < Ropelli_> fixed main.cpp to compile without warnings.

18:18 < Max__> The most spammy one was about conversion of string constants to char *

18:18 < Max__> Because someone wrote a bunch of functions that took char *s and called them with string constants as arguments.

18:19 < Max__> (which I think in C++ are a special case of converting only to const char *

18:19 < Max__> )

18:19 < Max__> or .. are string constants not arrays in C++?

18:19 < Max__> I remember there was something funny about them there.

18:20 < Max__> No. They're arrays.

18:21 < Max__> Odd special case then.

18:21 < Ropelli_> what

18:25 <@Smibu> hm got 2 warnings when compiled in release mode

18:26 <@Smibu> 1>GLFW.lib(init.obj) : warning LNK4075: ignoring '/EDITANDCONTINUE' due to '/OPT:ICF' specification

18:26 <@Smibu> 1>LINK : warning LNK4098: defaultlib 'MSVCRTD' conflicts with use of other libs; use /NODEFAULTLIB:library

18:27 < Xarthok> so did you guys decide who leads the whole thing, yet?

18:31 < Ropelli_> smibu

18:31 < Ropelli_> your glfw and project runtime is differs from each other

18:31 < Ropelli_> either one is static and the other dynamic

18:34 <@Smibu> not sure if i can lead the project, gonna be busy with studies starting from next week

18:35 < Ropelli_> i got school aswell, but maybe have some time to deal with stuff

18:35 <@Smibu> totem has most experience in C++ so maybe he could be the one

18:37 <@Smibu> ok i had small mistake in config, no warnings now

18:37 < Ropelli_> good

18:37 < Ropelli_> it opens the window and outputs good ?

18:38 <@Smibu> yea. and the glfw window appears and immediately disappears

18:38 <@Smibu> is that expected?

18:38 < Kopaka> there's that, someone leading actual programming, but there should also be someone(s) leading/organizing the what features should and shouldn't be made

18:40 < Ropelli_> smibu yes

18:43 * Max__ will lead his project.

18:51 < Xarthok> max seems to know whats up

18:51 < Max__> With what?

18:54 < Xarthok> you or totem. i mean in terms of who could lead this project and make technical decisions

18:54 < Max__> I can't lead this project.

18:54 * Max__ disagrees with C++.

18:54 < Xarthok> i think many of the gameplay/feature decisions should be community-voted

18:54 < Max__> I think people shouldn't worry about that for a while.

18:55 < Xarthok> we can start to worry while we're at it

18:55 < Xarthok> not much else we can do

18:55 < Ropelli_> yeah i agree with max

18:55 < Ropelli_> it may take some time to get to that point

18:55 < Max__> You should design a solid system based on a few core ideas.

18:55 < Ropelli_> and if the project wont be developed actively it will take even more time

18:55 < Max__> Then later look at the feasibility of adding features desired by the community.

18:56 < Max__> rather than trying to take into account a crapload of details while designing the initial system.

18:56 < Max__> I'm pretty excited about starting my one.

18:56 < Max__> But .. assignments.

18:57 < Xarthok> can't the system be designed in a way that makes virtually any feature possible to plug into it?

18:57 < Max__> Depends what you consider to be virtually any.

18:58 < Max__> It'd be difficult to later say "oh, actually, every resource should be content-addressable by its hash"

18:58 < Ropelli_> i think the initial system should be in 2 threads

18:58 < Max__> So that'd be something you'd take into account at the start.

18:58 < Max__> but the community doesn't know what that is.

18:59 < Max__> I think I'll use Haskell.

18:59 < Max__> Can't think of anything else I want to use.

18:59 < Max__> Might be difficult for others to contribute later if they want to, but .. hrm.

19:00 < Max__> Might be a good way to learn Haskell: with a burning desire to add a feature.

19:00 < Max__> Someone needs to write an imperative language with Haskell's type system.

19:01 < Max__> I remember seeing a university project somewhere that had that aim, but it didn't seem to do it properly.

19:01 < Max__> It just took a few aspects, like inferred types, which aren't all that important, imo.

19:01 < Xarthok> wait so you are going develop your own thing parallel to the C project started by smibu?

19:02 < Max__> C++*

19:02 < Max__> Yeah.

19:02 < Xarthok> yeye

19:02 < Kopaka> :-)

19:02 < Xarthok> might as well make 2 elmas then

19:02 < Xarthok> one conservative

19:02 < Xarthok> other with left alo, deathmatches with guns etc

19:02 < Ropelli_> yeah lets make infinite elmas

19:03 < Kopaka> that'll work out well

19:03 < Xarthok> don't forget jetpacks

19:03 < Max__> I can share ideas back. I'm not going to say "muahaha my program is all mine"

19:03 < Xarthok> everything is better with jetpacks

19:03 < Max__> Just can't stand the thought of writing such a program in C++.

19:03 < Xarthok> opensource it?

19:04 < Max__> I'd like to.

19:04 < Max__> but since it'd be parallel with this one, which uses closed-source as a form of security, I'd need to be careful.

19:05 < Max__> I'd probably encourage people designing the C++ one to do it in a way that having my one open-source wouldn't pose a threat to theirs.

19:05 < Xarthok> its not like you seem to want to mirror the functionality of the community project

19:08 < Max__> I suspect my one would probably be more portable too.

19:09 < Max__> Port it to PSP, etc.

19:09 < Max__> Was it you who played Elma with a PS2 controller?

19:09 < Xarthok> port it to NES cartridge while you're at it

19:09 < Max__> Dunno anything about that.

19:09 < Louskebab> nozkey played with a DDR pad

19:09 < Xarthok> :D

19:09 < Louskebab> while playing recorder

19:09 < Louskebab> normal in chile

19:09 < Xarthok> is there a video of that

19:10 < Max__> I've played Elma with my PSP before.

19:10 <@Markku-> toringe used to play with a ps2 controller

19:10 < Max__> just as a wireless controller for the computer.

19:10 < Max__> Ah yeah.

19:10 <@Markku-> he demonstrated his skills to us in fem05. he played better with it than me on keyboard

19:11 < Max__> Mm, cool.

19:11 < Max__> Wonder how limiting the screen size would be.

19:11 < Xarthok> i just realized belma has been around more than half of my "elma life"

19:12 < Max__> Belma has been around for more than my elma life.

19:20 < Louskebab> no video, just baseless claims

19:21 < Max__> How did mila's cheat detection program work?

19:21 < Ropelli_> smibu, i think the elma phys engine implementation could be made independently from the actual elma2

19:22 < Ropelli_> and then the concrete elma2 implementation uses the framework and the elma phys engine

19:24 < Max__> “FEM 05

19:24 < Max__> Print

19:24 < Max__> A National Conference on Women's Rights

19:24 < Max__> FEM 05 will be held on Saturday 5th November 2005. It is the second in the series of FEM Conferences, which aim to educate, inspire and motivate people to get involved in campaigns for gender equality.>"

19:24 < Max__> s/>"$/”

19:24 < Max__> /

19:26 < Max__> I think my project will have a different name.

19:26 < Max__> (not one like "Elma" or "Elastomania"

19:26 < Max__> )

19:26 <@Smibu> ropelli, yes that is probably possible

19:26 < Max__> But, probably won't bother making one up for a while.

19:27 < Ropelli_> think i could be starting a bit with the framework.. still at the experiment level though so it may change

19:28 < Max__> Are you planning on having new rec and lev formats?

19:30 <@Smibu> well we've been thinking at least that top10 data should be separated from lev files

19:31 < Max__> Definitely.

19:31 < Max__> and how will it refer to the lev files?

19:31 < Max__> (the scores)

19:31 < Max__> (and vice-versa)

19:32 < Max__> I guess if you don't change the format, you can do what recs do.

19:32 < Max__> using that random number in the lev file.

19:32 <@Smibu> well the score file would contain the lev's hash, for example

19:34 <@Smibu> lev and score files would have same filenames (excluding extension)

19:34 < Max__> Mm .. still going with individual files then?

19:35 < Max__> Could probably just make packs later.

19:35 < Max__> eg, with Darkplaces (a fork of the Quake engine), it automatically looks inside .pk3 files (zip format) for things to add to its virtual filesystem.

19:36 < Max__> er, fork of the Quake 3 engine or something.

19:36 < Max__> Dunno if the original Quake 3 had that.

19:36 <@Markku-> also, the current formats lack metadata, like driver/designed/date and time driven/comment field

19:37 <@Smibu> yes they will be added certainly

19:37 < Max__> $ ls ~/.nexuiz/data/dlcache/ | wc 299 299 6211

19:37 < Max__> Wonder how many files are in there.

19:37 <@Markku-> and there isn't really any need to limit the maximum .rec length

19:38 < Max__> Will you store replays as physics input?

19:38 < Max__> or as a list of states, similar to how they are now?

19:38 <@Markku-> i guess that is up for discussion

19:38 < Louskebab> physics input could be appealing if really equal physics for all

19:39 <@Smibu> i think list of states would be better, although it takes more space

19:41 < Max__> My system will probably use public/private key cryptography everywhere.

19:41 < Max__> Anyway, bed.

19:43 < Louskebab> gn

19:44 < Max__> I'd like to think about the feasibility of a completely distributed online system.

19:44 < Max__> So there is no central node whatsoever.

19:45 < Max__> Might have to encourage people to open a port or something.

19:45 < Max__> but everyone did that in Belma.

05:50 < Max__> I think I might actually write it in both Haskell and JavaScript.

05:51 < Max__> Haskell framework that lets you write UIs etc in JavaScript.

05:51 < Max__> (not HTML/DOM though, just the JS language)

08:57 < Max__> Oh, will the new Elma have a server program available?

16:03 < Max__> Ah, I know.

16:04 < Max__> A replay-to-video option.

16:04 < Max__> which just dumps a yuv stream or something.

16:04 < Max__> Mm, better RGB, really.

16:06 < Max__> $ elma2 -vcap -replay foo123-Max | ffmpeg -f rawvideo -pix_fmt rgb -i - -pix_fmt yuv420p -vcodec libx264 .. foo.mkv

16:06 < Max__> So you don't deal with massive sets of image dumps.

16:06 < Max__> That's how people still do it, right?

16:07 < Max__> (you can also encode losslessly with x264, and even in RGB (-libx264rgb in ffmpeg), for post-processing in another application)

18:11 < Ropelli_> added window class to open window/fullscreen

18:18 <@Smibu> checked out the sources from svn, but having problems with compilation

18:18 <@Smibu> when compiling the "elma2" project

18:18 <@Smibu> "one or more multiply defined symbols found"

18:24 < Ropelli_> paste error

18:27 <@Smibu> 1>------ Build started: Project: elma2, Configuration: Release Win32 ------

18:27 <@Smibu> 1>MSVCRT.lib(MSVCR110.dll) : error LNK2005: _free already defined in LIBCMT.lib(free.obj)

18:27 <@Smibu> 1>MSVCRT.lib(MSVCR110.dll) : error LNK2005: _strchr already defined in LIBCMT.lib(strchr.obj)

18:27 <@Smibu> 1>MSVCRT.lib(MSVCR110.dll) : error LNK2005: _malloc already defined in LIBCMT.lib(malloc.obj)

18:27 <@Smibu> 1>MSVCRT.lib(MSVCR110.dll) : error LNK2005: ___iob_func already defined in LIBCMT.lib(_file.obj)

18:27 <@Smibu> 1>MSVCRT.lib(ti_inst.obj) : error LNK2005: "private: __thiscall type_info::type_info(class type_info const &)" (??0type_info@@AAE@ABV0@@Z) already defined in LIBCMT.lib(typinfo.obj)

18:27 <@Smibu> 1>MSVCRT.lib(ti_inst.obj) : error LNK2005: "private: class type_info & __thiscall type_info::operator=(class type_info const &)" (??4type_info@@AAEAAV0@ABV0@@Z) already defined in LIBCMT.lib(typinfo.obj)

18:27 <@Smibu> 1>LINK : warning LNK4098: defaultlib 'MSVCRT' conflicts with use of other libs; use /NODEFAULTLIB:library

18:27 <@Smibu> 1>c:\Omat\VS\\elma2.exe : fatal error LNK1169: one or more multiply defined symbols found

18:27 <@Smibu> ========== Build: 0 succeeded, 1 failed, 0 up-to-date, 0 skipped ==========

18:29 <@Smibu> wait, succeeded now, after disabling LIBCMT linkage

18:29 <@Smibu> tried first to disable MSVCRT, but got even more errors with that

18:29 < Ropelli_> i think you have different runtimes

18:30 < Ropelli_> you got multiple projects in teh solution file ?

18:30 <@Smibu> yes, 4

18:30 < Ropelli_> do some of them compile as static library, and you link those static libraries in other projects ?

18:31 < Ropelli_> e.g, i have utils proj, fw proj and elma2 proj, where fw is compiled as static library and elma2 as exe

18:31 < Ropelli_> elma2 then links the static library from fw project

18:31 <@Smibu> i have not yet configure those other 3

18:31 < Ropelli_> ah ok

18:31 <@Smibu> i get loads of errors if i try to compile the whole solution

18:31 < Ropelli_> yes at first if you havent configured anything

18:31 <@Smibu> yea

18:32 < Ropelli_> but the link error may occur if the glfw.lib uses different runtime than the project you are compiling

18:32 < Ropelli_> e.g glfw.lib is compiled with static runtime, and the project is compiled with dynamic runtime

18:33 < Ropelli_> those compiling errors are quite annoying in c++, but you get used to deal with them at some point :p

18:45 <@Smibu> seems to be only one problem left... if i build with c++ exceptions disabled, i get this error: main.obj : error LNK2019: unresolved external symbol "void __cdecl boost::throw_exception(class std::exception const &)" (?throw_exception@boost@@YAXABVexception@std@@@Z) referenced in function "class boost::detail::thread_data<struct random_thread> * __cdecl boost::detail::heap_new<class boost::detail::thread_data<struct random_thread>,struct random_thread>(struct random_thread &&)" (??$heap_new@V?$thread_data@Urandom_thread@@@detail@boost@@Urandom_thread@@@detail@boost@@YAPAV?$thread_data@Urandom_thread@@@01@$$QAUrandom_thread@@@Z)

18:45 <@Smibu> hehe.. kinda verbose

18:46 <@Smibu> must be that boost didnt compile correctly

18:46 <@Smibu> or, maybe we can just have c++ exceptions enabled?

18:47 < Ropelli_> ofc exceptions

18:47 < Ropelli_> why did u think we compile without exceptions ?

18:48 <@Smibu> i didnt ;) i just noticed this because debug config had them disabled at first

18:49 < Ropelli_> ah okay

20:47 < Ropelli_> ok made teh window system

20:47 < Ropelli_> gona commit updates

20:50 < Ropelli_> comitted

21:13 <@Smibu> getting again unresolved externals, it doesnt recognize those fw:: things in main.cpp

21:14 < Ropelli_> you have the proper header files included in teh project ?

21:14 < Ropelli_> ah unresolved externals

21:15 < Ropelli_> you should make project, e.g fw

21:15 < Ropelli_> then include all header and source files from the fw folder to that project

21:15 <@Smibu> i have built fw project succesfully

21:15 < Ropelli_> ah

21:15 < Ropelli_> youve linked the fw.lib file to the executable project ?

21:16 <@Smibu> yes, it is in linker input

21:17 < totem-> compiling with vs express 2008 here. Gat a warning :

21:17 < Ropelli_> yes teh static object

21:17 < totem-> mainloop.obj : warning LNK4006: "struct <unnamed-type-event_handlers> event_handlers" (?event_handlers@@3U<unnamed-type-event_handlers>@@A) already defined in mainloop_events.obj ; second definition ignored

21:18 < Ropelli_> i think ill remove mainloop_events and i_mainloop from the next revision

21:33 < jonsykkel> why mak it so mongo

21:35 < Ropelli_> dno

12:42 < mena> hi

14:04 < Ropelli_> added keyboard support

14:59 < Xarthok-> add joystick support

14:59 < Xarthok-> and wiimote support

15:08 < Max__> Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

15:08 < Kopaka> yes we are doing 3d elma

15:09 < Max__> Cool.

15:42 < Ropelli_> added also voice commands

15:45 <@Markku-> while you're at it, add also leap motion support

15:45 <@Markku-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d6KuiuteIA

15:47 < Ropelli_> sure thing

16:58 < Ropelli_> comit

17:11 < Jappe2> i would like brain-computer interface

17:15 < Max__> Hands?

17:16 < Jappe2> hands are not computers in traditional sense at least so hands to brain neural pathways not count as brain-computer interface

17:17 < Max__> Interfaces aren't meant to be the things they interface.

17:22 < Ropelli_> i think at some point teh project could be separated so few work on render engine while few making the physengi/frameworek

17:22 < Jappe2> lets just agree that your joke was bad and it was a mistake by me to even reply to your comment

17:22 < Max__> or maybe it will just fail because it's another attempt at security through obscurity.

17:23 < Max__> like Elma, Belma and EOL.

17:23 < Ropelli_> what

17:24 < Max__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity

17:24 < Ropelli_> yeah i know that but what are you trying to say

17:25 < Ropelli_> it adds obscurity when making render engine while making framework ?

17:25 < Max__> No. The whole thing.

17:25 < Ropelli_> the project?

17:25 < Max__> Yeah.

17:25 < Kopaka> stop judging the project when most things haven't been completed decided yet..

17:25 < Max__> Mk.

17:26 < Ropelli_> it wasnt only about making it more secure

17:26 < Ropelli_> its easier to develop further when having the source than making some assembly hacks..

17:27 < Jappe2> windows 7 is the best os around and its closed source

17:27 < Jappe2> checkmate open source advocates

17:28 < Max__> Why is it used so little then?

17:29 < Jappe2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems checkmate

17:30 < Jappe2> bo3 checkmating this was, i win 2-0

17:30 < Max__> What's that meant to show?

17:31 < Jappe2> now time to sleep

17:31 < Jappe2> goodnight everyone except open source advocates

17:34 < Ropelli_> peope should start working on teh rendering engine

17:37 < Ropelli_> should have features like texture managing, loading from files, some matrix operations, rendering, etc etc

18:32 < Ropelli_> so is there anyone who would start working on teh rendering part?

14:19 < Jappe2> i think different ground types etc could be added as mods for people who want them

14:20 < Jappe2> you can load such stuff from some mod menu so its clear its not part of the game officially

14:21 < Jappe2> some moding tool then would be nice

14:36 < Max__> Like ice?

14:36 < Max__> (no grip)

14:37 < Max__> Oh, or just graphics?

14:38 < Max__> Like the "high quality" mode, but that affects ground as well.

14:38 < Max__> s/quality/detail/

14:51 < Jappe2> yes i mean things such as ice ground like you mentioned

14:52 < Jappe2> some people want such but i think as mods they could be included in a way that says they are not part of "official" game

15:20 < Max__> Would they be allowed in battles?

15:20 < Max__> EOL has some somewhat silly battle modes already.

15:25 < Ropelli_> when new elma

15:39 < Max__> Make sure you design it to support infinite concurrent replays.

15:39 < Max__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqV_pkMY0HM so you can do that.

16:12 < teh_mila> damez new elma

16:14 < teh_mila> let me try! let me try!

16:16 < teh_mila> :/

16:30 <@ville_j> maybe you can make it for us

16:31 < teh_mila> lack of skillz sry

16:32 <@ville_j> :/

16:43 < Max__> mila: do you think it'd be feasible to have the physics modified randomly slightly such that replaying WR-quality input will likely fail, and the player not be impeded?

16:44 < Max__> (eg, each volt might be multiplied by an effectively random value in 1±0.01)

16:44 < Max__> strength of volt*

16:45 < Jappe2> <@ville_j> maybe you can make it for us <- we want the game to be finished someday o,o

16:45 < teh_mila> why do you want that

16:45 < Max__> Security.

16:45 < Jappe2> Max__: there is already some merge program by jon

16:45 < Jappe2> i think it supports unlimited merges

16:45 < teh_mila> i dont see anythign secure about that

16:46 < Jappe2> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YEd1KrgWWE this program

16:47 < Max__> teh_mila: a replay might consist of a seed and a sequence of physics input .. when replaying, it applies the multipliers (and other things) produced by the seed.

16:48 < Max__> teh_mila: if you replace the seed, you'll get slightly different physics and hopefully the player will happen to die or something.

16:48 < teh_mila> and how is that secure if you can fix seed during cheating too?

16:49 < Max__> The seed would be produced in terms of values produced outside.

16:49 < teh_mila> outside in outer space

16:50 < Max__> It would need to be created shortly before playing, and you'd advertise a hash of that seed and the physics input to be signed by a trustable outside entity.

16:50 < Max__> The outside entity would include a timestamp too.

16:50 < Max__> The initial seed will be derived from some sort of timestamped signature.

16:50 < Max__> So you just need to check that the timestamps roughly match the run time.

16:51 < teh_mila> altering physics is never a good idea

16:51 < teh_mila> teh ebst would be to remove all teh randomness.. thats what i would do

16:52 < Max__> Yeah, see, there's already randomness.

16:52 < teh_mila> whatever.. do it anyhow you like

16:52 < Max__> It's just not used for cryptographic proof of a valid run.

16:53 < teh_mila> rather think about better ways to do teh:)

16:53 < Max__> I think that's basically the only way to make it properly secure.

16:53 < Max__> (when you exclude the possiblity of having computers play instead of people)

16:54 < Max__> (which is somewhat far off)

16:54 < Max__> Other than that, you can only really keep using security through obscurity.

16:54 < Max__> Closed-source: hack the program.

16:55 < Jappe2> teh_mila: yes i think there was talks about removing randomness already

16:55 < Max__> Encrypted protocols: .. hack the program.

16:55 < Max__> etc

16:55 < Jappe2> like make new version act same way on every computer etc

16:55 < teh_mila> yeah ez

16:55 < Max__> Yeah, they're going to use a constant global physics FPS.

16:55 < teh_mila> 1000fps sounds just right

16:56 < teh_mila> btw i tried to manage some students for some project over internet and it ended up in a big FAIL

16:56 < teh_mila> because it is fucked:)

16:56 < Max__> How did darmoed's cheat work?

16:56 < Max__> Hmm .. I think I've asked that before.

16:56 < Jappe2> maybe the project leader is to blame :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

16:56 < Jappe2> BURN

16:57 < Max__> Did it essentially save/load the exact program state?

16:57 < teh_mila> no

16:57 < Max__> (or the relevant bits of it)

16:57 < teh_mila> it was autoplay

16:57 < Max__> So it took something like a .rec?

16:57 < teh_mila> darm's cheat was like autoplay

16:57 < teh_mila> it saved all teh keypresses

16:57 < teh_mila> and then you could replay and take over at any point

16:58 < Max__> How did you detect that?

16:58 < Jappe2> if you use autoplay you are autogay am i rite?

16:58 < teh_mila> yes

16:58 < teh_mila> Max__ - i had a closer look:)

16:59 < teh_mila> [2:56pm] <Jappe2> maybe the project leader is to blame :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - well yeah..

16:59 < teh_mila> if you tell someone to do something and he doesnt reply in 2 weeks and others are waiting for it, its quite fucked;)

16:59 < Jappe2> the difference here though is that (i assume) people are enthusiastic about this project

16:59 < Max__> Maybe acceleration went off for too short a time.

17:00 < teh_mila> and teh enthusiasm evaporates in 2-3 weeks:)

17:00 < Max__> I think that's in the .rec for the sound.

17:00 < Jappe2> whereas some school project where everyone has to participate you get mix of people and some of those might have not very high interest in the task

17:00 < Max__> But only a silly autoplay would let that happen.

17:01 < teh_mila> there are some design choices to be made... and someone does them, but later you realize the decisions were not really optimal but you cant easily recode someone else's part and shit

17:01 < teh_mila> and then things start to get fucked

17:01 < teh_mila> Max__ - yes teh "bug" in autoplay was sillly and that's why it was ez detectable

17:03 < Jappe2> the trick is to have 1 man do the code and 10 others watch and criticize his work

17:03 < teh_mila> yep thats the trick.. now who is going to be that one person:)

17:03 < Jappe2> http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3qvhj2/

17:03 < Max__> in a school project you can personally tell people to do shit.

17:04 < Jappe2> does your university require you to teach teh_mila ?

17:04 < Jappe2> i know some phd's working at uni need to have certain amount of lessons no matter what they do at uni, and some people hate the teaching part

17:04 < Jappe2> some universities etc*

17:05 < teh_mila> no, i dont have to teach

17:05 < teh_mila> and i dont teach

17:06 < Jappe2> there is saying: those who teach dont and those who dont teach

17:08 < Jappe2> is the stereotype about academical world true? lots of big egoes and people arguing about whatever is their subject etc

17:08 < teh_mila> yes

17:08 < Jappe2> are you one of these people? you seem pretty laid back

17:08 < teh_mila> i always tell them to shut the fuck up and go to teh pub instead

17:09 < Jappe2> nice

17:09 < Max__> Is it better in the industry?

17:09 < teh_mila> no:)

17:11 < Max__> The only professor I've had that I'd think of as having a huge ego is someone who emphasises the fact that he's spent his life in the industry.

17:11 < Max__> but he's not a computer science guy.

17:11 < Max__> Just a project manager.

17:12 < teh_mila> you probably havent met sufficiently important professor:)

17:12 < Max__> Mm, maybe not.

17:13 < Jappe2> i dont think students really see the inner bickering that goes on

17:15 < Max__> If it's inner, why is it important?

17:15 < Jappe2> its just negative aspect

17:16 < Jappe2> another thing i noticed on this channel where lots of university people is that many of them are total pervos

17:16 < Jappe2> like bsdm stuff they like etc and i remember mila talking about doing it too once with his gf

17:16 < teh_mila> \o/

17:16 < teh_mila> not gf, just some fuckfriend

17:16 < Max__> Maybe they're open-source.

17:17 < teh_mila> but nah, i dont think uni ppl are pervos

17:17 < teh_mila> maybe even less than normal average population

17:18 < Jappe2> ok, mabe finland phenomena

17:20 < teh_mila> actually most of teh collegues are married and shit

17:20 < teh_mila> younger than me

17:20 < teh_mila> and they dont look like they do weird shit

17:22 [Users #new-elma]

17:22 [@harrii ] [@ville_j ] [ Kopaka ] [ mena] [ Ropelli_ ] [ teh_mila]

17:22 [@Markku- ] [ Jappe2 ] [ Louskebab] [ onla] [ Ruotiukko]

17:22 [@Smibu_away] [ jonsykkel] [ Max__ ] [ rawl] [ Stini ]

17:24 < Jappe2> yes i didnt like mean many partners but they like all that weird shizzle

17:36 < teh_mila> thats what i call a good elma2 discussion!

17:38 < Jappe2> only real elma2 discussion needed: no left alo

17:42 < teh_mila> i would add left alo:)

17:42 < teh_mila> it doesnt need to be same retarded as old lema

17:42 < teh_mila> elma

17:48 < Max__> Would you remove gravity apples?

17:49 < Max__> or maybe reserve them for FT levels or somethinfg.

17:51 < teh_mila> i think its fine.. also adding various other crap, but i would definitely remove randomness

17:51 < teh_mila> and remove bugs

17:51 < teh_mila> there is a division by zero in physics and you should change it to division by min(x,thresh)

17:52 < teh_mila> and for 1000fps no bugs ever

17:59 < Jappe2> i thought the idea of this is to make elma clone but with proper settings

18:01 < teh_mila> i thought the idea is to create new elma, containing all old eol features plus several new

18:02 < teh_mila> and because of complete sourcecode, it would be easier to do it nice, clean, bugless and safe

18:02 < teh_mila> but maybe i got teh wrong idea:)

18:03 < Max__> Nice, clean, bugless and safe.

18:03 < Max__> Everything C++ is good at.

18:05 < teh_mila> i dont see any reason to make this clone 100% compatible with old elma

18:05 < Jappe2> well isnt alovolt a bug?

18:05 < Jappe2> so it should be removed

18:05 < teh_mila> it could be either removed or left alo added

18:05 < Max__> How do you decide whether or not to classify it as a bug?

18:05 < teh_mila> having it asymmetrical makes no sense

18:06 < Max__> Were normal bounces intentional?

18:06 < teh_mila> fix that division by 0 and there will be only nice clean bugs:)

18:06 < teh_mila> or nice clean bounces:)

18:07 < Max__> (my comment on C++ was sarcastic, btw)

18:09 < Jappe2> c++ is the best right now

18:11 < Kopaka> still up in the air wether the idea is 100% clone or something new I guess

18:12 < Kopaka> would prolly be good thing to decide before coding too much ;)

18:22 < teh_mila> i think teh task is to do 99% clone first and then some shit, but whatever, teh coders shoudl decide

18:26 < Jappe2> my suggestion earlier was make clone and then have all extra stuff in like "mod" option where you enable things like left alo etc

18:26 < Jappe2> so its clear those mods arent part of the core game

18:30 <@Smibu> agree with jappe

18:38 < teh_mila> well, open-td has teh new things as a part of the core game

18:38 < teh_mila> anyway, do it as you like

18:38 < teh_mila> i dont play eol and i wont play this one too

18:45 < Kopaka> yep, I like that idea too, we like the game as it is, so basic game will be compatible with old wr table etc.

18:45 < Ropelli_> ye but who code

18:45 < Kopaka> but then can turn extra stuff on

18:46 < Ropelli_> efficiency level: 0

18:46 < Kopaka> might be tough to find enough coders in elma scene :/

18:47 < Kopaka> need enough skills and enough motivation

18:47 < Ropelli_> well you only need to do your part well enough

18:48 < teh_mila> its enouhg to have one good coder;)

18:48 < teh_mila> balazs rosza:)

18:48 < Ropelli_> its just there arent no one to work with anything

18:48 < Jappe2> i thought jon and smibu are like the main coders?

18:48 < teh_mila> my guess is that this project will get doomed because there are too high expectations

18:48 < Ropelli_> only people who have done coding is me & totem

18:49 < Ropelli_> and totem wont have much time on this project

18:50 < teh_mila> what is already done?

18:50 < Ropelli_> very basic window handling and loop management

18:50 < teh_mila> Jappe2 said there is a substantial progress..

18:50 < Kopaka> maybe make some list in doc where ppl can add themselves who are interested, like nick, relevant skils, what they expect to do

18:51 < Ropelli_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kHvQeL7-AeEF4NIXbFuS8_pa_j-VCYUGOIMMaB_QwXs/edit should do

18:51 < Kopaka> so know if have ppl with the needed skills etc

18:51 < Ropelli_> you dont need to know c++ thoroughly, just need to do your own work well

18:51 < Kopaka> ye

18:51 < Kopaka> can has edit rights?

18:52 < Ropelli_> gime email

18:52 < Jappe2> when i hosted upload i glanced at the files (dire mistake btw) and saw some new elma screenshot that looked like elma battle menu but modern

18:52 < Jappe2> and i assumed it was made by jon

18:52 < Ropelli_> ok now repoen

18:52 < teh_mila> no c++11 :///////

18:53 < Ropelli_> well i think it could be used, those auto's and such quite useful

18:54 < teh_mila> comment all code:///////

18:54 < teh_mila> the most useful shit in c++11 are those lambda functions, i use it like everywhere now

18:54 < Ropelli_> yes those are quite useful

18:55 < teh_mila> kopaka added his pro skill \o/

18:55 < Kopaka> o/

18:56 < teh_mila> you can easily use eol db i guess, possibly with new features added

18:56 < teh_mila> oh teh manager arrived;)

18:56 < Ropelli_> hell yeah

18:56 < teh_mila> any experience with designing a big project?

18:57 < Ropelli_> well ive designed some hobby projects

18:57 < teh_mila> of what size?

18:57 < Ropelli_> well it was a game meant to be easily extended

18:57 < teh_mila> in kilobytes?:)

18:57 < teh_mila> (source)

18:59 < Ropelli_> almost 1mb

18:59 < teh_mila> ok lets see in a year:)

18:59 < Ropelli_> well see

22:26 < teh_mila> ok, teh year just passed

22:26 < teh_mila> gimme elma2

22:27 < Ropelli_> lolz

22:28 < Ropelli_> i cant do it by myself

22:28 < teh_mila> why not?

22:28 < Ropelli_> takes impsy time

22:28 < teh_mila> impsy time / 4 = impsy time :)

22:29 < Ropelli_> no

22:29 < teh_mila> impsy time / 4 = ?

22:29 < Ropelli_> 1 / 4 of teh impsy time

22:31 < teh_mila> come on, basic game can be done in 1 month by one person

22:32 < Ropelli_> yeah just code everything in main.cpp and youre ready

22:32 < teh_mila> the problem will be with all the shit like eidotr, multis, server and crap

22:32 < teh_mila> editor

22:33 < Jappe2> is ropelli the main coder in this or what? i thought he was nab

22:33 < teh_mila> those shits take loads of time and often need to be redesigned because things get fucked

22:33 < teh_mila> he seems to be teh manager

22:33 < Jappe2> what does that even mean

22:33 < teh_mila> = that guy in a nice suit

22:33 < Ropelli_> yeah but if you structure teh code well enough it gets a lot easier

22:34 < teh_mila> its not about the structure of the code

22:34 < Jappe2> do this: let most experienced coder decide everything

22:34 < Jappe2> i go sleep good night everyone except open source advocates

22:34 < Ropelli_> well if you design it well enough..

22:34 < teh_mila> Jappe2 - ropelli seems to be the most experienced out of the set {ropelli} which is currently teh set of coders;)

22:34 < Ropelli_> ye

22:37 < teh_mila> teh pro arrived

22:37 < teh_mila> NEW!!! elma

22:37 < totem-> hi .pro

22:37 < teh_mila> :)

22:38 < totem-> mila how much work was belma/eol

22:38 < teh_mila> a lot:)

22:38 < totem-> yeh

22:38 < teh_mila> the amount of source code is prolly 2x more than original elma

22:38 < teh_mila> it is seriously fucked, believe me:)

22:38 <@Smibu> whats the 'misc' folder in svn for?

22:38 < totem-> you will open your code for elma2. Not to be copied but inspired from

22:38 < teh_mila> and ofc if you find out something doesnt work fast enoughm, you have to redesign all teh shit

22:38 < totem-> ?? question

22:39 < teh_mila> that code is seriously shit:)

22:39 < teh_mila> teh worst (looking) code ive written in last 10 years

22:39 < totem-> @Smibu : third part libraries. currently OpenGL sdk

22:39 < teh_mila> but maybe

22:39 < teh_mila> atleast it is good to get teh general idea how things do work in reasonable time

22:39 <@Smibu> ok, and what about 'lib'? :)

22:39 < totem-> libs output directory

22:39 <@Smibu> ah

22:39 < totem-> ofc

22:40 < totem-> and bin fro executables

22:40 < teh_mila> ok maybe if this project get far enough with teh basics, i release teh code

22:40 < teh_mila> i mean when it is clear that the project will happen

22:40 < teh_mila> now im in doubts:)

22:40 <@Smibu> start is always hard..

22:40 < totem-> Smibu I plan to wrap physics as a class/API, so it's less gobal/static. Maybe we'll have to use more than one instance at a time

22:41 < Ropelli_> thatd be quite good

22:41 <@Smibu> totem yes.. the code is bad atm :)

22:41 < totem-> mila you have 50% to be right

22:41 < totem-> if no more devs comin'

22:41 < teh_mila> hm physics looks like perfect static class:)

22:41 < totem-> developpers

22:42 < totem-> physics is currently not even class, just mega global vars everywhere

22:42 < teh_mila> then it sucks:)

22:42 <@harrii> hmm, have you got anything working yet?

22:42 < teh_mila> one nice static class which calculates n-th frame out of (n-1)th, ez

22:42 < Ropelli_> build main.cpp and check for yourself

22:42 <@harrii> i'm sorry i haven't had time for this

22:42 < teh_mila> with one pro method

22:42 <@harrii> where can i checkout the project?

22:43 <@Smibu> you have svn credentials yet?

22:43 <@harrii> no

22:43 < totem-> ok i go shower then take a shot at this

22:43 <@Smibu> ok, you need to ask kopaka

22:43 <@Smibu> for them

22:43 <@harrii> ok

22:49 < teh_mila> btw how open is teh source going to be?

22:49 < teh_mila> i wanna be sure i can cheat;)

22:49 < teh_mila> or nat

22:49 < Ropelli_> for now only people with teh access can check source

22:50 < Ropelli_> kopaka is hosting the svn

22:52 < teh_mila> damez, checked and nat have access:/

22:52 < teh_mila> :)

23:09 < Ropelli_> wane teh?

23:11 < teh_mila> not really necessary

23:11 <@Smibu> only if he's going to make contributions ;)

23:11 < teh_mila> nat then

23:11 < Ropelli_> ye

23:12 <@harrii> i have the code now :)

23:12 <@harrii> should i install visual studio?

23:13 < Ropelli_> if wane

23:13 <@harrii> which compiler do you use?

23:13 < Ropelli_> visual c++ compiler

23:14 <@harrii> ok

23:14 <@harrii> which version of visual studio should i download?

23:15 < teh_mila> 2012 ofc

23:15 < Ropelli_> i think 2010 best atm

23:15 < Ropelli_> 2012 impsy bad ui

23:15 <@harrii> oh

23:15 < Ropelli_> also cant compile for win xp

23:15 <@harrii> i guess everybody should use the same?

23:16 < Ropelli_> well dno if thats the point

23:16 <@harrii> well, there are quite much differences in compilers

23:16 <@harrii> to avoid problems, everybody should use same compiler

23:16 < Ropelli_> just make portable code so it would be ez to use whatever compiler anyone wants, just remember to define couple of default defines

23:16 < Ropelli_> i use 20120

23:17 < Ropelli_> 2010*

23:17 <@harrii> lol that's not gonna work

23:17 < Ropelli_> why

23:17 <@harrii> it is hard enough to get it working with one compiler

23:17 < teh_mila> is it?

23:17 < teh_mila> dont use nonstandard shit and it will work everywhere

23:18 < Ropelli_> write once, compile everywhere

23:18 <@harrii> but the problem is that i don't know what is nonstandard

23:18 < Ropelli_> __ stuff

23:18 < Ropelli_> with that prefix

23:18 < Ropelli_> and probably should not use c++11 because its not supported everywhee

23:18 <@harrii> ok

23:18 < teh_mila> hexagon still better game than elma \o/

23:18 < teh_mila> need to beat zamppe

23:19 < teh_mila> eol server works everywhere \o/

23:19 < Ropelli_> java code? :p

23:19 < teh_mila> nah, just portable c++

23:19 < Ropelli_> oke

23:25 <@Smibu> good news.. i managed to build teh solution in debug and release mode.. the glfw had wrang runtime

23:25 < Ropelli_> nice

23:26 <@Smibu> hm nice progress, i can see mouse coords being outputted :D

23:27 < Ropelli_> ye

23:27 <@harrii> i finally found visual studio 2010

23:27 <@Smibu> im using 2012

23:27 <@harrii> in every page it was only 2012

23:27 <@Smibu> i think you can just dl 2012, nothing wrong with it

23:27 <@harrii> but ropelli said it's bad?

23:27 < Ropelli_> no

23:28 <@Smibu> well maybe one thing

23:28 <@Smibu> need to build boost sources yourself

23:28 <@Smibu> aldn glfw

23:28 < teh_mila> and i did over 100s in hexagon again

23:28 <@Smibu> and*

23:28 <@harrii> oh

23:28 <@harrii> then maybe 2010 is better

23:28 <@Smibu> 2010 maybe easiest to setup

23:28 <@Smibu> ye

23:29 <@harrii> ok i think i will install it tomorrow

00:14 -!- totem- [~totem-@ARennes-555-1-102-48.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #new-elma []

00:22 -!- teh_mila [~xxx@desdemona.robots.ox.ac.uk] has left #new-elma []

08:48 < Max__> 08:26:51 <@Smibu> hm nice progress, i can see mouse coords being outputted :D

08:48 < Max__> output*

08:48 < Max__> "output" is like "put", but with an "out" in front of it :\

09:45 < Xarthok> idea

09:46 < Xarthok> times in elma 2 could be timed to the 0.001th of a second

09:49 < Xarthok> and if hooked bug is removed, how about having the option to make levels that can have an optional amount of apples that should be taken instead of all of them

09:51 < Xarthok> oh, first idea was already noted ._. nvm

09:59 < Max__> There should really be a bunch of things added to levels.

09:59 < Max__> to match what can be done with battles.

09:59 < Max__> eg, levels should be slowness/flagtag/etc ones, not battles.

09:59 < Max__> Battles just follow what the levels are.

10:00 < Max__> Then slowness levels will have a slowness top10.

10:01 < Max__> Maybe also no-volt, always brake, etc flags.

10:01 < Xarthok> yeah!

10:02 < Xarthok> should stop thinking in terms of what the limitations of current elma and levels are :)

10:02 < Xarthok> i guess all existing levels should be no-left-alo but new levels can be made to allow left alo?

10:04 < Max__> Sounds sensible.

10:05 < Max__> The lev format might as well be recreated.

10:05 < Jappe2> it sounds sensible to insensible

10:05 < Max__> Can easily make a converter that adds in that no-left-alo flag, etc

10:06 < Xarthok> yeah

10:08 < Max__> Make it extensible; should be comprised of named parts, rather than of something that happens to fit into C struct representations on some C implementation for some architecture.

10:32 < Max__> Maybe polygons should also be described hierarchically.

10:33 < Max__> So the level has—potentially multiple, but only one would really be relevant—"gaps"

10:34 < Max__> which themselves can have "blocks", and "blocks" can have "gaps", etc

10:37 < Max__> Then you can do things like assign styles to particular blocks.

10:37 < Max__> Rather than doing crazy masking shit.

10:38 < Max__> and you'd be able to automatically fix topology errors.

10:38 < Max__> (probably only really desirable in the editor)

16:07 < teh_mila> hi pros

16:07 < teh_mila> any pro-gress?

16:08 < teh_mila> :)

16:08 < teh_mila> i wanna see my 5y of my hard work to be outshadowed by this pro-ject!

18:51 [Users #new-elma]

18:51 [@harrii ] [@ville_j ] [ Kopaka ] [ mena] [ Ruotiukko] [ Xarthok]

18:51 [@Markku- ] [ Jappe2 ] [ Louskebab] [ onla] [ Stini ]

18:51 [@Smibu_away] [ jonsykkel] [ Max__ ] [ rawl] [ teh_mila ]

20:44 < teh_mila> stinipro

21:34 < onla> lots of text in the log at least

22:04 < teh_mila> max

22:16 < Ropelli_> 3g network quite bulletproof and fast

22:18 < teh_mila> perfecttly suitable for hd porn

22:18 < teh_mila> -t

22:18 < Ropelli_> godd dayum

22:25 < teh_mila> [2:07pm] <teh_mila> hi pros

22:25 < teh_mila> [2:08pm] <teh_mila> any pro-gress?

22:25 < teh_mila> [2:08pm] <teh_mila> i wanna see my 5y of my hard work to be outshadowed by this pro-ject!

22:26 < totem-> 5y godamnit

22:27 < teh_mila> damez

22:28 < Ropelli_> continous progress

22:28 < teh_mila> thats not sufficient property to finish teh project

22:29 < Ropelli_> ez keep on coding and release versions

22:30 < teh_mila> i can imagine some continuous always increasing function, which is still convergent to less than 100% :)

22:30 < Ropelli_> ye

22:39 < teh_mila> is there any schedule / time plan?

22:39 < Ropelli_> nope

22:40 < Xarthok> so who is working on what, now?

22:40 < Ropelli_> but hopeful we get the project on playable state at least in a month

22:41 < totem-> without lgr and all ? plain polygon color and a circle for wheel and head

22:41 < Xarthok> yeah, focus on whats important first

22:42 < Xarthok> instead of debating on what kinds of fruit should be possible to collect instead of apples

22:42 < Ropelli_> well ye drawing could be done in a way that would be implemented later with lgrs and all

22:43 < totem-> haeh ye it's a bit scary what people expect on lauta

22:43 < Xarthok> btw i think it would be cool if there could be collectable objects with a shape other than a circle

22:43 < Xarthok> like squares or irregular shapes

22:45 < teh_mila> i think you should get a boost if teh kuski gets teh cock up the arse

22:46 < totem-> or like with a bar of life why goes down, and you got extra lifetime if you get apple

22:46 < totem-> which*

22:46 < Ropelli_> and also a possibility to walk if too hard with a bike

22:47 < teh_mila> arse sratch button pls

22:47 < teh_mila> c

22:47 < totem-> yeah and climb cliffs with your motorcycle in a backpack

23:19 -!- teh_mila [~xxx@desdemona.robots.ox.ac.uk] has left #new-elma []

01:08 < Max__> A month? O_o

01:08 * Max__ is going to try to start writing a Haskell implementation today.

01:08 * Max__ goes to uni first to listen to a boring lecture and hand in a boring assignment.

01:57 <@Markku-> jet packs. don't forget the jet packs.

03:11 < Max__> I'll remember not to put them in.

05:04 < Max__> 07:25:13 < teh_mila> [2:07pm] <teh_mila> hi pros

05:04 < Max__> Ahhh .. 12-hour time on IRC.

05:44 < Louskebab> impsy.

09:18 < Xarthok> i'm not even gonna look at elma 2 if it has no jetpacks

09:19 < Xarthok> no seriously, even bike-less running and jumping around could be implemented

09:19 < Xarthok> something like prince of persia style

09:19 < Xarthok> endless potential

09:30 < Max__> and the player will still be elastic.

09:41 < Xarthok> yes

09:41 < Xarthok> he can do brutal cartwheels

09:41 < Xarthok> for extra height

09:42 < Xarthok> something like QWOP

10:08 < Xarthok> think of the potential of making all kinds of adventure levels

10:08 < Xarthok> with different objectives, not just collecting apples

10:09 < Xarthok> maybe freestyle levels where you get points for bounces, brutals etc

11:08 < Jappe2> i want permadeath, die once and your elma is deleted

11:14 < Max__> But people could cheat by using btrfs.

11:18 < Max__> [root@ceres /]# rm -rf etc/ bin/ usr/games/

11:18 < Max__> [root@ceres /]# mv /btrfs/arch

11:18 < Max__> arch/ arch-bk/

11:18 < Max__> [root@ceres /]# mv /btrfs/arch{,-bk2} && mv /btrfs/arch{-bk,}

11:18 < Max__> bash: mv: command not found

11:18 < Max__> Hmm..

11:59 < Jappe2> no they could not

12:33 < Max__> Why not?

12:35 < Jappe2> because its permadeath

12:35 < Max__> But it's btrfs.

13:15 [Users #new-elma]

13:15 [@harrii ] [@ville_j ] [ Kopaka ] [ mena] [ Ropelli_ ] [ Xarthok]

13:15 [@Markku- ] [ Jappe2 ] [ Louskebab] [ onla] [ Stini ]

13:15 [@Smibu_away] [ jonsykkel] [ Max__ ] [ rawl] [ trewtrewt]

--- Log opened Sat Sep 15 22:08:04 2012

23:18 < totem> i changed this, but i will commit reference program as well, you're right

--- Day changed Sun Sep 16 2012

14:21 < Ropelli_> changed the window class a bit

14:21 < Ropelli_> gonna make some window specific event types, e.g windowclose and windowopen events

14:22 < Ropelli_> i changed the class so it would be easy to change resolution ingame and possibly other things

14:28 <@Smibu> nice

--- Day changed Mon Sep 17 2012

02:00 < Xarthok> elma 2 kuski needs a portal gun imo

02:01 <@Markku-> crowbar should be the first obtained weapon

02:08 < Xarthok> http://www.reddit.com/r/elastomania/comments/zzo5o/which_new_features_do_you_want_to_see_in_elma_2/

04:04 < Max__> Hmm .. portals might actually be fun.

04:04 < Max__> (ones that work like in .. Portal)

04:06 < Max__> Dunno abuout portal gun.

04:06 < Max__> Front-wheel throttle?

04:18 < Xarthok> this would work better if people actually voted on the features

04:18 < Xarthok> to see which are most wanted and which are least wanted

04:23 < Max__> It would also need to make sure the bike actually is in multiple positions while going through the portal.

04:23 < Xarthok> portal levels would be great :)

04:24 < Max__> Fun to implement.

04:24 < Xarthok> not necessarily included in internal levels but as an optional new direction to design creative levels, why not

04:25 < Max__> How would it aim? Just shoot in front of the bike?

04:25 < Max__> Probably reasonable.

04:26 < Xarthok> mouse?

04:26 < Max__> I presume most people already use two hands on the keyboard.

04:26 < Xarthok> well, time to grow a third hand

04:26 < Xarthok> elma is perfectly playable with one hand

04:27 < Max__> In front ight make things easy.

04:27 < Max__> About to hit a wall too fast: volt appropriately, shoot portal, fall through.

04:28 < Xarthok> well volting to aim could work

04:28 < Xarthok> didn't think about that

04:28 < Max__> Mm, and on flat ground, pointing the bike in any direction is easy.

04:29 < Xarthok> i don't see any possible downside for having this option

04:29 < Max__> Effort.

04:29 < Xarthok> i think the more possible ways to make creative levels, the better

04:31 < Xarthok> scriptable levels would be intense

04:31 < Max__> What happens if you enter a portal partially and slide off the end?

04:31 < Xarthok> whole new ways to design adventure levels

04:32 < Xarthok> stretching the bike too much should make you die instead of causing internal error

04:32 < Xarthok> i think

04:32 < Max__> Why does it actually cause an internal error?

04:32 < Max__> NaN?

04:33 < Max__> Change all doubles to long doubles.

04:33 < Max__> 16 more bits.

04:33 < Xarthok> i don't think extra long stretching would be a good idea

04:34 < Xarthok> scriptable events would be great if used properly

04:34 < Xarthok> like touch a switch to open a door elsewhere

04:39 < Max__> http://i.imgur.com/ChDT2.png

04:40 < Max__> What if the player is moving left?

04:40 < Xarthok> what do you mean?

04:40 < Xarthok> it should preserve the direction as well

04:40 < Max__> The Portal games don't really have that problem, because the player will collide with the edge of the portal.

04:41 < Xarthok> oh you mean portals

04:41 < Xarthok> i thought teleports

04:41 < Max__> but in Elma, the wheels and head are all detached.

04:41 < Max__> Yeah.

04:41 < Max__> Ah.

04:44 < Xarthok> can portals be shot on unflat surfaces?

04:46 < Max__> I'd say so.

04:46 < Max__> It just wouldn't fit onto the surface.

04:46 < Max__> it'd stick above it.

04:46 < Xarthok> btw i've only played flash 2d version of portal :D

04:46 < Xarthok> *avoids sharp flying objects in my direction*

04:46 < Max__> Ah.

04:47 < Max__> Can't remember how that one works exactly.

04:47 < Max__> Does it change the player's standing direction?

04:47 < Xarthok> all surfaces were flat there

04:47 < Xarthok> | or _

04:47 < Xarthok> in flash portal

04:47 < Max__> Mm .. probably only for visual effect, like in the 3D game.

04:48 < Max__> because facing direction is 2D in the 3D game, 1D in the 2D game.

04:48 < Max__> (aim has another dimension)

04:48 < Xarthok> indeed

04:48 < Max__> in Elma though, facing direction is 2D even though the game is 2D.

04:49 < Max__> Facing direction isn't a good term .. orientation better.

04:49 < Xarthok> yeah

04:54 < Xarthok> xmoto is open source, right? what if we simply implemented proper elma physics into it?

04:54 < Xarthok> for... science

04:55 < Max__> Could be possible.

04:56 < Max__> I think the physics part is fairly modular.

04:56 < Max__> (uses ODE)

04:57 * Max__ has modified parameters in it before.

04:57 < Max__> Unicycle mode .. penyfarthing mode, etc.

04:57 < Xarthok> :D

04:57 < Xarthok> it's C++ isn't it?

04:58 < Max__> Yeah, I think so.

04:58 < Max__> Either that or C.

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16:43 < teh_mila> have i missed any new pro versions?

19:47 < teh_mila> nat

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18:34 < Ropelli_> smibu could you tell how the elmaphys framework works

18:35 < Ropelli_> or how it could be used

--- Day changed Wed Sep 26 2012

15:25 < Ruotiukko> two amazing reasons to make elma2 quickly:

15:25 < Ruotiukko> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?p=222760#p222760

15:26 < Ruotiukko> and i don't mean the part where Pawq said something to lousku.

15:31 < Kopaka> =)

16:39 < Jappe2> well bjenn already was out

16:39 < Jappe2> lasted for 4 days or something

18:42 <@Smibu> Ropelli_: elmaphys isnt really ready to use yet, afaik

18:42 <@Smibu> it needs further refactoring

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12:23 < onla> dööd

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01:42 < Jappe2> this project dead?

08:24 <@Smibu> nope :) we just moved technical discussion (implementation details) to another place, so this channel wont be cluttered

08:24 <@Smibu> this channel is for discussing features

08:59 < Louskebab> holy hand grenade please

17:05 < bene> Smibu: Possible to listen in on the technical discussion?

17:16 < Louskebab> no

17:17 < Louskebab> they're discussing their private saveload bakdoors

17:17 <@Smibu> nope, but we'll keep you up to date by telling here when we make some progress, dont worry :)

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--- Log closed Fri Oct 12 16:46:45 2012

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--- Log opened Wed Oct 17 18:42:24 2012

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23:30 < Smibu_away> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8646&p=223764#p223764

23:31 < Ruotiukko> damez zamppe tried warm up already

23:32 < Smibu> :) just some test values off the top of head

23:33 < bene> "One advantage of this CEGUI is that it's easy to customize the "look and feel" of menus." as a user or as a developer?

23:33 < Smibu> as a dev, but it's also possible for users to modify it, if you know XML and how CEGUI works

23:34 < bene> cool

23:34 < bene> i know how everything works!

23:35 < bene> would be nice to have as much as possible configurable.

23:36 < Smibu> yeah of course we'll try to make all things configurable that make sense to be configurable :)

23:37 < bene> menus could make sens

23:37 < bene> e

23:45 < bene> just simple things like mouse vs no mouse vs combination. Or kuski usually plays internal/external/battle could make great for customizing menus.

23:54 < Smibu> i dont think it's necessary to be able to customize the structure of menus. if we design it well, it will be easy-to-use for everyone. menu customization is usually required in IDEs only that have hundreds of different options

--- Day changed Fri Oct 19 2012

00:33 < bene> Smibu_away: yeah nice design would make it unecessary. But what I'm thinking is if its scriptable

00:34 < bene> a person forcusing on battles might make script to always have 10 most recent battle levs in main list(downloaded and done) or so.

00:34 < bene> etc.

00:34 < bene> just curious thats all.

00:51 < Max_> What about for people who don't use menus?

00:52 < Max_> Like me.

00:52 < Xarthok> yeah you can script the whole menu to be one button called "Play"

00:52 < Xarthok> or put a command line on there lol

00:54 < Max_> “So any ride driven in original Elma can also be driven in Elma 2, and the other way round.”—not if the FPS is restricted.

00:54 < Xarthok> fps changes mid-ride?

00:55 < Max_> Sounds silly to me.

00:55 < Max_> It should be the same everywhere.

03:31 < bene> Xarthok: indeed, just play and behaviour according to preference :D

03:31 < bene> you make the preference, behaves as intended.

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08:54 < koffing> morn

09:52 < Xarthok> morn

10:34 < jonsykkel> morn

10:34 < koffing> norm

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19:09 < jonsykkel|EF> 37. Bjenn [EF] 00:52,09

--- Day changed Fri Nov 09 2012

19:03 < Smibu> should new player have access to all internals at the beginning, or require him to complete them in order?

19:27 < Markku-> need to drive wu in under 14.30 before can access flat track

19:30 < Louskebab> access to all

19:31 < Louskebab> no idea what kinda menus you hev going on but i think it would be najs if it were arranged equally among other levpacks, just as the "first" one

19:37 < Markku-> bold idea

19:37 < Markku-> i kinda like it

19:37 < Louskebab> also simpler to make i'd imagine o,o

19:40 < Smibu> yeah not bad idea at all

19:42 < Markku-> how's the coding going?

19:43 < Smibu> it's good, no major problems so far:)

19:43 < Markku-> veri najs

--- Day changed Sat Nov 10 2012

00:49 < Kopaka> in this eol age it makes sense to have access to all yes, like some new guys comes and plays only battles but then sees many in f5 are playing ah it makes sense that he could join

10:19 < X-arthok> i support that idea

10:23 < Jappe2> i dont support the idea of making internals "just another levpack"

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22:59 < Smibu> ville_j: share some ops

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10:34 <@ville_j> who else want??

10:38 < jonsykkel|ZF> imimim

10:43 <@ville_j> now be careful not to lose it!

10:48 < jonsykkel|ZF> ops ((

10:52 <@ville_j> :/

12:30 < Max_> Use it or lose it.

12:38 <@Kopaka> better use it then

12:38 -!- Max_ was kicked from #new-elma by Kopaka [you asked for it ;)]

12:42 < Jappe2> brb making topic "hi im kopaka the bitch asshole" thread on lauta

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22:58 <@Smibu> switch between center/non-center camera during ride - necessary or not?

22:59 <@Smibu> probably not, but just thought i'd ask..

23:00 < Ruotiukko> how about free camera kind of thing during ride?

23:05 <@Smibu> you mean switching between riding mode and free-look mode during playing? thats a good idea i think

23:06 < Ruotiukko> ye

23:14 < Xarthok> yea great for FF battles

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20:52 <@Smibu> offtopic - updated elmanager (fixed hopefully the ground/sky rendering issue for some ppl)

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04:19 < koffing> ?)

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18:01 <@Smibu> press-and-hold a button to be in free camera mode, or just click once to toggle free camera. which is better style?

18:01 < Ruotiukko> click once to toggle

18:02 < Ruotiukko> hard to chat in case need to hold

18:02 < Ruotiukko> and so on

18:02 <@Smibu> ah ye:)

18:07 < lousk> make it pasibel to freelook during a ride?

18:07 < lousk> very useful in huge levs

18:08 <@Smibu> ye thats teh plan

18:09 < lousk> awesome <3

18:09 < Kopaka> kind of gameplay changing that

18:09 < Kopaka> eventhough hardly useful for WRs but still ;)

18:09 < lousk> negative somehow?

18:10 < Kopaka> a long ff lev becomes easier you might say

18:10 < Kopaka> when can stop and check ahead

18:10 < Kopaka> ofc you can still today by checking on diff comp if really want to but

18:10 < lousk> i think that just eliminates "where to go"

18:11 < lousk> i reached flower in smibu80 or wateh long überlev, but missed 1 apple

18:11 < lousk> was slightly annoying :D

18:11 < Ruotiukko> kopaka, also can use editor with same copmuter

18:11 < Ruotiukko> which many people do

18:11 < Ruotiukko> or some do

18:12 < lousk> haven't even thought of doing that o,o

18:12 < lousk> ok i gotta run, bb ->

18:13 < Kopaka> dunno if really a big deal, but imo something that should be discussed first at least

18:13 <@Smibu> if it's critical, it can be disabled for FF battles :)

18:17 < Kopaka> should still have the possibility to go direct to free camera btw., like f1+enter in eol now, so can be in lev without bike showing and without it counting as a real run (f1+enter runs has special flag in eol db)

18:20 <@Smibu> hm ok

18:23 <@Smibu> and yeah if there's no resting places in lev, spying is impsy.. so that's another good reason

--- Day changed Sat Dec 15 2012

21:25 <@Smibu> FIRST VERSION RELEASED! :) http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746

21:35 < Madness> An unhandled win32 exception occurred in elma2.exe [5020].

21:36 <@Smibu> blah :/ at which point?

21:38 < Madness> right after starting elma2.exe

21:38 <@Markku-> did you put it in eol folder?

21:38 < Madness> yes

21:38 <@Smibu> what OS?

21:39 < Madness> xp home, sp3

21:41 <@Markku-> working nicely for me :)

21:42 <@Markku-> levels are only loaded at startup atm?

21:42 <@Smibu> ye

21:42 <@Markku-> yeo thought so

21:45 <@Smibu> 2 ppl already reported error on win xp.. hm

21:45 <@Smibu> anyone got xp + no errors?

21:46 <@jonsykkel> no error here

21:47 <@Smibu> ok, so it's at least possible to run on xp

21:47 < Madness> cool :(

21:47 <@Markku-> must be because jon has opera installed

21:47 < Madness> i have too ))

21:47 <@jonsykkel> probably

21:47 <@Markku-> oh

21:47 <@Smibu> hah

21:47 <@jonsykkel> try reinstalling opera

21:48 < Madness> i'll try to upgrade to the newest version

21:48 <@Markku-> opera -> tools -> fix elma2

21:49 < Madness> not sure if this helps

21:49 < Madness> "Unhandled exception at 0x0041e1fc in elma2.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0x00000010."

21:50 <@Smibu> hmm it prolly helps a bit.. hold on a sec

21:50 < Ropelli_> madness you installed teh elma2 correctly?

21:50 < Madness> yes

21:50 < Madness> as correctly as possible

21:50 < Ropelli_> what is that

21:50 <@Smibu> so you have datafiles dir in eol dir?

21:51 < Ropelli_> because only exception i think might occur is that it tries to read some file which doesnt exist or something

21:51 < Madness> put the zip in my eol folder and double clicked that

21:51 < Ropelli_> those things will be fixed ofc later

21:54 < Madness> asdfg ofc

21:54 <@Markku-> hehe, flower is rendered on top of the bike, i was like wut what's going on o,o

21:54 <@Markku-> brain too preconditioned to see the other way around

21:54 <@Smibu> oh ye they're wrong way round

21:54 <@Markku-> emeisink work you two btw

21:59 < Madness> now i know why it didn't work

21:59 < Madness> i had no levels in the lev folder and no replays in the rec folder

22:00 < lousk> i hev like 10 fps

22:00 < lousk> hi mans

22:00 <@Markku-> hi man

22:00 < Ropelli_> its probably sorting teh level listr

22:00 <@Markku-> i pressed f9 to type hi man

22:00 < lousk> ah

22:00 < lousk> :D

22:01 <@Smibu> oh nice madness :) yeah we didnt handle no-levs case

22:02 <@Markku-> yep, crashes also for me if no levs in folder

22:02 <@Markku-> rec folder can be empty

22:05 < lousk> i check this elma thing when im sober later

22:05 < lousk> looks nice work boys

22:05 < lousk> hard to say how physics feel because so low fps

22:06 <@ville_j> I'll skip strip show to play this elma2 tonight

22:06 <@ville_j> well okay I decided to skip it already an hour ago, but now it feels even bettar choice

22:10 < Madness> interesting physics

22:12 < Madness> those arm moves :D

22:12 < Ropelli_> yep those will be fixed

22:13 < Ropelli_> also when switching direction teh suspensions should draw behind teh wheels

22:14 <@Markku-> cursor should probably be hidden as well in play mode

22:15 < Madness> yes

22:17 <@Markku-> working also in ubuntu 12.04

22:18 < Ropelli_> should work natively too if compiled :p

22:18 < Madness> i wanna save recs ;<

22:21 <@Smibu> yeah we'll do rec support for next version i guess

22:21 < Ropelli_> hopefully support for server/client connection too :p

22:22 < Ropelli_> since it will pretty major part of the project at the end

22:22 <@Markku-> esc alias first priority, i'm constantly smashing alias key and wandering why nothing happens :p

22:25 < Madness> the menu needs to be changed a bit, when you need to accelerate from the very beginning, it moves you a line upwards

22:25 < Madness> so you have to scroll one line down, then press up and enter

22:27 <@Smibu> yeah that can be solved with the "play again" menu

22:27 < Ropelli_> hoyl menu :p

22:28 <@Smibu> btw,anyone interested in making elma-like gfx for menus?

22:28 <@Smibu> all you need to do is modify some of the datafiles.. more info in wikipage

22:28 <@ville_j> I think I can make

22:29 <@Smibu> nice:)

22:29 < Madness> it will all be adjustable, right?

22:29 <@Ropelli_> what?

22:30 <@Markku-> all

22:30 < Jappe2> how to add levels

22:30 < Jappe2> i cant find any levels

22:30 <@Ropelli_> lev folder

22:30 <@Madness> i meant that everyone would be able to change the look of the menus?

22:30 <@Smibu> yes

22:31 < Jappe2> need to create lev folder to datafiles?

22:31 <@Ropelli_> at least from the datafiles :p

22:31 <@Ropelli_> no

22:31 <@Markku-> extract zip to eol folder

22:31 < Jappe2> i did

22:31 <@Markku-> levs inside normal lev folder

22:31 < Jappe2> i have main exe where eol exe is and datafiles folder there

22:31 <@Markku-> but they are only loaded at startup

22:31 <@Markku-> so restart if you added levs while elma2 was on

22:32 < Jappe2> no it was same lev folder as eol

22:32 < Jappe2> i have in same place as normal eol

22:32 <@Markku-> oke

22:32 < Jappe2> maybe too many files?

22:32 <@Ropelli_> nah

22:32 <@Madness> jappe2: rtfm!)

22:32 <@Markku-> read the finman

22:32 <@Smibu> how many you got? but it shouldnt be up to that really

22:32 <@Ropelli_> it looks for folder 'lev' and parses the levs from there

22:33 < Jappe2> 1911

22:33 <@Markku-> i'll try with many levs

22:36 <@Markku-> working fine, lev list keeps increasing

22:36 <@Markku-> 14k levs

22:36 <@Smibu> btw you can also resize teh windows, in case you didnt notice yet

22:36 <@Markku-> najs, didn't notice

22:36 <@Smibu> the grabbing area is kinda small

22:38 <@Ropelli_> it took about 10mins for me to load all the levels :p

22:38 <@Ropelli_> 7k levs

22:38 <@Markku-> yeah, some 2 mins gone now, loaded up to J

22:38 <@Markku-> how are they sorted?

22:39 < Jappe2> http://kopasite.net/up/q8fc6zihx4x9qe2/sdfsdfsd.png this looks correct setup?

22:40 <@Ropelli_> yes

22:40 <@Smibu> yeah.. so what is the exact problem? it doesnt start at all, or lev window empty, or..?

22:40 < Jappe2> lev window empty

22:40 <@Ropelli_> maybe lev folder aswell

22:40 <@Smibu> it would crash then

22:41 < Jappe2> lev folder has plrenty of levs

22:41 < Jappe2> im pressing help but it doesnt help, bug

22:42 <@Ropelli_> send picture of teh lev folder :p

22:42 <@Smibu> that button should be removed.. we wont need ingame help i guess

22:42 < Jappe2> its just 1911 lev files in there ropelli

22:42 <@Ropelli_> try open teh game as administrator

22:43 < Jappe2> nice try virus

22:43 <@Markku-> possible some 0 byte file in lev folder messing things up?

22:43 <@Smibu> 0 byte levs shouldnt cause problems.. it will just skip over them

22:43 < Jappe2> i cant delete lev file at least because it says elma 2 uses it

22:43 <@Ropelli_> shouldnt be the csse

22:43 <@Markku-> okiz

22:43 < Jappe2> it was the problem

22:44 <@Ropelli_> ahh

22:44 <@Ropelli_> ofc

22:44 < Jappe2> deleted 1 and only 0 byte lev and works now

22:45 <@Smibu> oh yea it leaves the file handle open for such levs

22:45 < Jappe2> it was named .lev or such, duno if that makes it bongo

22:45 < Jappe2> had like no name

22:48 <@Markku-> 14k levs loaded in some 12 mins

22:50 <@Ropelli_> i guess it may consume some memory when 14k levs p

22:50 <@Ropelli_> :p

22:50 <@Markku-> 116mb

22:51 <@Ropelli_> yeah..

22:51 <@Smibu> less than firefox!

22:51 <@Ropelli_> lol

22:52 <@Smibu> 303mb with 2 tabs for me atm

22:54 < Jappe2> mine 233 with 3 tabs

22:54 < Jappe2> and 77k plugin container

--- Day changed Sun Dec 16 2012

08:25 < Max_> 08:49:52 < Madness> "Unhandled exception at 0x0041e1fc in elma2.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0x00000010."

08:25 < Max_> ie, "this is a complicated program written for some reason in a language without memory access safety"

--- Day changed Mon Dec 17 2012

14:07 < Ruotiukko> getting don't send error message on elma 2 exe

14:07 < Ruotiukko> why?

14:08 < Ruotiukko> hmm works now amazingly

14:10 < Ruotiukko> some stupid bug with internal 19 though

16:03 <@Smibu> QWQUU019.lev works just fine for me.. can you send the lev that caused teh error?

16:22 < Ruotiukko> it seemed to be something like

16:22 < Ruotiukko> actually entered qwquu004.lev

16:23 < Ruotiukko> ite entered some levels below in the list

16:23 <@Smibu> oh, i'll try with that then

16:25 < Ruotiukko> i think it had something to do with the searching function and level list loading

16:25 < Ruotiukko> the problem is following actually

16:26 < Ruotiukko> i have levels qwquu004, 005, 019

16:26 < Ruotiukko> when i enter 004

16:26 < Ruotiukko> it goes to 019

16:26 < Ruotiukko> when enter 005

16:26 < Ruotiukko> it goes to 004

16:26 < Ruotiukko> when enter 019, it produces both 019 and 005, 005 in smaller scale

16:26 < Ruotiukko> :D

16:27 < Ruotiukko> http://kopasite.net/up/1fe15lsi8ol56md/exampel.PNG

16:27 < Ruotiukko> there you can see the weird polygon

16:28 < Ruotiukko> it is uphill battle

16:28 <@Smibu> lol ok

16:28 < Ruotiukko> mirrored :D

16:28 < Ruotiukko> well, not

16:28 < Ruotiukko> hmmm

16:29 <@Smibu> only happens while levs are being loaded?

16:29 < Ruotiukko> nope

16:29 < Ruotiukko> still happens

16:32 < Ruotiukko> but does not happen with any levs except for qwquuxxx seems

16:46 <@Smibu> can you zip and upload all your qwquuXXX levs? cant reproduce this bug with mine

16:49 < Ruotiukko> http://kopasite.net/up/2e12b2b39st6hvn/asd.zip

16:51 <@Smibu> lol, got same bug now

16:51 <@Smibu> i'll try to figure out why it happens

17:56 < Jappe2> hey arent you gonna change graphics how i can change my own

17:56 <@Smibu> well, figured it out. it's because those lev files you sent really contain those polygons

17:56 < Jappe2> tell me smibu plz i send you pictures of my penis

17:57 < Jappe2> pictures of my naked penis

17:57 <@Smibu> ville_j promised to make some new menu gfx

17:57 <@Smibu> i guess

17:57 < Ruotiukko> hm

17:57 < Ruotiukko> dunno how that is possible

17:58 < Ruotiukko> i mean, usually just made a train level or tried something stupid in them

17:59 <@Smibu> elma shows the original internal regardless of lev content (for QWQUUXXX levs)

18:04 < Ruotiukko> ye

18:19 < Jappe2> yes smibu but how to make

18:19 < Jappe2> i want to make my own

18:19 < Jappe2> all graphics

18:21 <@Smibu> http://wiki.elmaonline.net/Elma_2 some info there about how to modify menu graphics

18:22 <@Smibu> for game gfx, we havent designed any new "lgr" format yet, but i guess we'll use 32-bit PNGs in it

18:23 <@Smibu> so you could extract some default lgr file, convert all pcx files to 32-bit PNGs and edit them

18:25 < Jappe2> priority number uno

--- Day changed Tue Dec 18 2012

12:31 < Max_> priority number due: make KP_Enter start levels as well as Enter.

12:33 * Max_ will just map the keypad enter key to a normal enter.

12:34 < Max_> $ xmodmap -e 'keycode 104 = Return'

12:34 < Max_> fixed.

12:52 < Max_> Does it get continuously slower for other people too?

12:58 < Max_> Goes fast again when I set the resolution (so the video resets).

--- Day changed Wed Dec 19 2012

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--- Log opened Fri Dec 28 15:57:40 2012

--- Day changed Sat Dec 29 2012

23:10 <@Smibu> Updated: http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=226962#p226962

23:25 < Madness> some internals don't work

23:25 < Madness> the big ones

23:26 < Madness> elma turns off

23:26 <@Smibu> hmmh :/ which ones, for example?

23:27 <@ville_j> everything works for me

23:28 <@Smibu> yeah at least lab pro and AH work fine here too

23:29 < Madness> most of them

23:29 < Madness> hmm

23:29 < Madness> sometimes it works sometimes not

23:29 <@Smibu> start elma2.exe from command line. does it say anything there when it quits?

23:30 <@Smibu> well, it might not, because its not a debug build :/ but try anyway

23:30 < Madness> tried

23:30 < Madness> can't see anything

23:31 < Madness> the window disappears immediatelly

23:31 <@Smibu> try deleting options.dat

23:31 < Madness> it seems there's no connection with the level size

23:31 < Madness> it's random

23:31 < Madness> ok

23:32 < Madness> same

23:33 < Madness> i'll try something

23:34 <@Smibu> looks like win xp people are having the most troubles.. but this shouldnt be OS dependent thing

23:34 <@Smibu> when are you guys going to update to win7?

23:34 <@Smibu> :)

23:35 < Madness> never!

23:35 < Madness> xp best forever :D

23:36 < Madness> btw, managed to record what the window says

23:36 < Madness> elma2 indev build date: Dec 29 2012 21:43:10

23:36 < Madness> elmaphysics_test has started

23:36 <@Smibu> yeah, so the lev at least started.. but then it quits?

23:37 <@Smibu> so you never even see the lev?

23:37 < Madness> seems so

23:37 < Madness> it quit at about 00:00:765

23:38 <@Smibu> hm wtf, so it crashes during gameplay

23:39 <@Smibu> jonsykkel: is this working for you?

23:39 <@jonsykkel> smibu: yes but its crashing randomly

23:39 <@Smibu> oh dame

23:39 <@Smibu> so probably same problem as madness.. hm

23:40 <@Smibu> crashing during gameplay, or in menus too?

23:40 <@jonsykkel> hm

23:40 <@jonsykkel> dunno, happened a couple of times only

23:40 < Madness> only after i enter a level

23:43 <@Smibu> externals work?

23:44 < Madness> nah

23:44 < Madness> same problem there

23:45 <@Smibu> ok..hm

23:51 <@Smibu> so basically - will it always crash in any lev if you wait long enough?

23:55 < Madness> no

23:55 < Madness> only at the beginning

23:56 <@Smibu> mmh ok.. i guess we need to release some version that can output some more debug messages

23:57 <@Smibu> probably tomorrow.. now, gnite

23:57 < Madness> good night

--- Day changed Sun Dec 30 2012

18:57 <@Smibu> for those who are getting crashes: http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=226992#p226992

23:00 <@Smibu> jonsykkel / Madnezz: any error messages with the debug exe?

23:06 <@jonsykkel> nope

23:09 <@Smibu> but it crashes nonetheless? :(

23:09 <@jonsykkel> no, havent had any yet

23:09 <@Smibu> oh ok

23:09 <@Smibu> btw, it crashes when minimizing i guess

23:10 <@Smibu> noticed a while ago

23:11 <@Smibu> im not aware of other bugs, also i tested it with win xp sp3 in virtualbox.. worked fine there too

23:12 <@jonsykkel> hm doesnt crash on minimize here

23:13 <@Smibu> or minimize, maximize, close window - sequence may crash too (with some error popup)

23:16 <@Smibu> hm tried in VM, no popup there

23:16 <@jonsykkel> yes no here either

23:45 < Madnezz> no error messages here either

--- Day changed Mon Dec 31 2012

00:57 < Xarthok-> keep up the good work lads

03:34 < Max_> Hmm .. I thought there weren't going to be any problems between platforms, because only cross-platform libraries were being used.

12:20 < Madnezz> it doesn't crash anymore o,o

12:20 < Madnezz> i don't get it

--- Day changed Tue Jan 01 2013

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--- Day changed Sat Jan 05 2013

05:27 < Jappe2> will elma2 have windowed fullscreen mode?

05:27 < Jappe2> or in some games its called "borderless" mode

05:27 < Jappe2> useful so can alt+tab without any delay

11:51 < Max_> So you have a window the same size as your screen?

11:52 < Max_> Hmm .. I thought the delay came from switching resolutions.

11:52 < Max_> (or bit depths)

11:52 < Max_> The bitdepth might be relevant for the current Elma .. dunno.

12:04 < jonsykkel> had no delay when altabing back and forth from elma until changed screen, now 1 sec

12:16 <@Smibu> Jappe2: probably not until glfw is updated

12:16 < Jappe2> games for windows live

12:16 < Jappe2> games live for windwos

12:17 <@Smibu> isnt maximize button good enough anyway, whats so great about borderless

12:18 < Ropelli_> what was the question?

12:18 <@Smibu> 05:27 < Jappe2> will elma2 have windowed fullscreen mode?

12:18 <@Smibu> 05:27 < Jappe2> or in some games its called "borderless" mode

12:18 <@Smibu> 05:27 < Jappe2> useful so can alt+tab without any delay

12:18 < Ropelli_> yeah maybe nat

12:18 < Jappe2> with maximise the window can move etc and you see those window move faks at the top

12:19 < Max_> Silly people with inferior window managers.

12:19 < Max_> My WM lets me fullscreen anything like that.

12:19 < Ropelli_> i dont see anything bad having those window borders in fullscreen

12:20 < Max_> (because, of course, it's the one that puts the borders on (though they're normally only 1px anyway)—it can take them off and resize the window)

12:20 < Jappe2> its distracting and mong

12:21 < Ropelli_> i think there are some programs which does that too :p

12:21 < Max_> Also, jw, does (maybe did) Elma 2 become continually slower for other people?

12:21 < Ropelli_> no need to include the support in teh game anyway

12:21 < Ropelli_> what

12:22 < Max_> Like .. smooth as soon as you start the program, but after playing for a minute, it's running at ~10fps.

12:22 < Max_> Then a minute later, 5.

12:22 <@Smibu> continually slower? nah.. must be your OS fault :)

12:22 < Max_> It resets when the video does.

12:22 < Ropelli_> what video

12:22 < Max_> The video the game is rendering to.

12:23 < Ropelli_> you mean the window?

12:23 < Max_> No.

12:23 < Max_> Same window, new video.

12:23 < Ropelli_> cant really understand what you mean with the 'video' thing, but it shouldnt slow down

12:23 < Max_> Maybe it has a different techical name.

12:23 <@Smibu> i guess he means the "video mode"

12:24 < Max_> in Nexuiz it's called "video".

12:24 < Max_> Yes, sure.

12:24 < Max_> You change the video mode, so the video has to reset.

12:24 < Jappe2> there is no need to include anything in the game anyway ropelli

12:24 < Ropelli_> ah well atm it just basically reopens the game again

12:24 < Jappe2> but is not reason not to do if you dont know how

12:24 < Max_> Hmm .. iirc it kept the same window.

12:24 < Max_> Oh, wait, that will've been Wine.

12:25 < Ropelli_> jappe i wouldnt want to include that because it makes the code nonportable

12:25 < Max_> Because I was using a virtual desktop.

12:25 < Max_> Yeah, the normal windowed mode didn't work in Wine.

12:25 < Max_> Well, it did, kind of.

12:25 <@Smibu> we can add borderless window thing if glfw 3 supports it

12:25 < Max_> Just couldn't use the mouse.

12:25 < Ropelli_> yeah

12:26 < Max_> Is there a Linux build available somewhere btw?

12:26 < jonsykkel> #ifdef _WIN32?

12:26 <@Smibu> no we havent tried to compile for other platforms

12:26 < Max_> Ah. :\

12:26 < Max_> Isn't that a bit .. hrm.

12:27 <@Smibu> dunno really the process.. should i install some ubuntu, get compilers for it and setup there?

12:27 < Jappe2> i hope it does

12:27 < Ropelli_> nah

12:27 < Ropelli_> its poss to do from windows but ive never done that

12:27 < Max_> I saw there were already funny issues (resulting obviously from undefined behaviour) in Windows.

12:27 < Ropelli_> maybe using cygwin its poss, dno

12:27 < Max_> So when you try to compile it for another system, presumably other undefined behaviour will trigger errors.

12:28 < Ropelli_> what

12:28 < Max_> That's why it's generally better to test all supported platforms from the start .. or use a system that doesn't have so much undefined behaviour.

12:28 < Max_> (so the platforms are effectively pretty much the same)

12:28 < Ropelli_> :)

12:28 <@Smibu> what undefined behaviour are you referring to

12:29 < Max_> int *foo(int i, int *c){ int *a; if(b){ a = c; } return a; }

12:30 < Max_> er

12:30 < Max_> int *foo(int i, int *c){ int *a; if(i){ a = c; } return a; }

12:30 < Max_> int *bar = foo(42, d); if(bar) baz(*bar);

12:30 < Max_> Something like that.

12:31 <@Smibu> glad we are not writing such code

12:31 < Ropelli_> i guess we both know undefined behaviours on c/c++, but is there some specific way to trigger such?

12:31 < Max_> Well, the problem there will be easily found with something like `valgrind`.

12:31 < Max_> Why would you want a specific way?

12:32 < Max_> There are lots of ways to accidentally trigger undefined behaviour in C/C++.

12:32 < Max_> That was just one.

12:32 < Ropelli_> ah never mind

12:33 < Ropelli_> but i dont see anything which could prevent us to compile on other systems than windows

12:33 <@Smibu> brb in 1h

12:33 < Max_> Windows and not Windows are different environments.

12:33 < Max_> I've seen code like that differing in behaviour between Linux x86 and Linux x86_64.

12:34 < Max_> When I targetted one architecture, the stack frame was already initialised to zero for some reason.

12:34 < Max_> When I targetted another with the same compiler, it wasn't.

12:34 < Ropelli_> well ofc you can make code that behaves differently(take a look at big/little endian systems), but if using abstractions such behaviours wont occur <.<

12:35 < Max_> Does the code never use pointers or something?

12:35 < Ropelli_> and really i cant understand your arguments

12:35 < Ropelli_> they arent even relevant to this

12:35 < Max_> They're very relevant.

12:35 < Ropelli_> yeah max, everything is allocated on stack

12:35 < Ropelli_> nothing on heap

12:35 < Ropelli_> or not..

12:36 < Max_> and what's the default value of something allocated on the stack?

12:36 < Ropelli_> ..

12:36 < Ropelli_> you shouldnt rely on 'default' values if allocating on stack, of course they will contain rubbish

12:37 < Ropelli_> c++ standard doesnt even specify what the starting value should be

12:37 < Max_> s/shouldnt/can't/

12:37 < Ropelli_> thus you shouldnt rely on such behaviour

12:37 < Max_> Yes, but it's possible nevertheless to do so.

12:38 < Ropelli_> and yes, you can write int *ptr = null; *ptr; if you wanted to, its as bad as yours

12:38 < Max_> in something like Rust or Java, code that could potentially access something that's initialised is invalid.

12:38 < Max_> it won't even compile.

12:38 < Max_> because it's an invalid program.

12:38 < Max_> er, uninitialised*

12:39 < Ropelli_> and again i cant quite understand what you mean

12:39 < Max_> Actually, that's not quite true in Java: you can do funny things with uninitialised final fields before the constructor's finished.

12:40 < Max_> Reasonable languages either don't have any way to express such a thing, or rule out all possible instances of the problem as invalid code (that won't compile).

12:40 < Ropelli_> 'reasonable' languages.. what do you even mean by that

12:40 < Max_> C++ doesn't have that limitation, so compilers aren't allowed to implement it.

12:41 < Max_> Because in C++, `int *foo(int a, int b, int *c, int *d){ if(a) return c; else if(b) return d; }` is valid code.

12:41 < Ropelli_> max

12:42 < Ropelli_> i dont think you really understand the purpose of lowlevel and highlevel language

12:42 < Max_> I'd claim the contrary.

12:42 < Ropelli_> at least your arguments give that expression

12:42 < Max_> C++ shouldn't be used to write entire games.

12:42 < Ropelli_> ..

12:43 < Max_> You might write a minimal game engine or something, then write all the logic in some other language.

12:43 < Ropelli_> do you understand the concept of high- and lowlevel languages

12:43 < Ropelli_> ?

12:43 < Max_> I'd usually argue that such terminology is misused, but sure, I know what you mean by "high- and low-level languages".

12:44 < Ropelli_> pls enlight me then

12:44 < Max_> About what?

12:44 < Max_> How it's misused, or what they are?

12:44 < Ropelli_> what they are

12:45 < Max_> There isn't really a definition I'd feel comfortable to use to describe what you probably think of as low-level.

12:46 < Max_> So I'll just say: you'll say C++ and C are low-level.

12:46 < Max_> But I'd say: low-level languages don't provide as much abstraction of the platforms they run on.

12:46 < Ropelli_> yes thats correct

12:47 < Max_> Then the problem isn't a low-level vs. high-level one.

12:47 < Max_> if you're going by my definition.

12:47 < Max_> It's a safety one.

12:47 < Max_> Look into something like Rust.

12:47 < Ropelli_> c++ is both high- and lowlevel, which gives the ability to compile safely on other platforms

12:47 < Max_> That would probably be comparable in power to Rust, but it's very safe.

12:48 < Max_> for example, there are no nulls or uninitialised reads.

12:48 < Max_> What makes C++ low-level?

12:48 < Ropelli_> pointers

12:49 < Max_> Why are pointers low-level?

12:49 < Max_> How do they relate to the platforms C++ runs on?

12:49 < Ropelli_> they can be 32bit or 64

12:49 < Max_> x86 talks about memory addresses, which are integers.

12:50 < Max_> I think in C++ pointers are conceptually linked to integers, but in, say, C, there is no conceptual link between integers and pointers.

12:50 < Max_> Dunno about C++, but C says `malloc(1) < malloc(2)` causes undefined behaviour.

12:51 < Max_> and converting a pointer to an integer type other than intptr_t/uintptr_t *CAN* cause undefined behaviour (whether or not it does is implementation-defined).

12:51 < Max_> Even (int)(void *)0 is invalid.

12:52 < Max_> There's no link between a null pointer value and the int value, 0.

12:52 < Max_> Other than that an integer constant expression of that latter type happens to be a null pointer constant, which can be cast to a pointer type to obtain a null pointer value.

12:53 < Ropelli_> yes?

12:53 < Max_> How does being 32-bit or 64-bit make the language low-level?

12:54 < Max_> ECMAScript (Javascript, etc) defines its number type to being representationally equivalent to IEEE-754 binary doubles.

12:55 < Ropelli_> yes

12:55 < Max_> which are 64-bit.

12:55 < Max_> Does that mean Javascript is low-level? Just because there's some concept of bitwise limits?

12:55 < Ropelli_> no

12:55 < Max_> Why does it make C++ low-level then?

12:56 < Ropelli_> dno about javascript, but in c/c++ you are allowed to use pointer operators(+/-)

12:56 < Ropelli_> and they may behave differently on 32/64bit systems

12:56 < Max_> They should behave the same on 32/64bit systems.

12:56 < Max_> in C, at least, where there is no relation between pointers and any integer representations of them.

12:57 < Ropelli_> yes i see what you mean

12:57 < Max_> So pointers are high-level.

12:57 < Max_> They don't reflect the platform they're running on.

12:57 < Max_> Because they're dissimilar to memory addresses, which is how they'd typically be implemented.

12:58 < Ropelli_> i do understand the concept of pointers yes

12:58 < Max_> I know. I'm just explaining why they're not low-level.

12:59 < Max_> I'd claim that both C at least is a high-level language.

12:59 < Max_> s/both //

12:59 < Max_> Dunno about C++; not as familiar with its precise semantics.

13:00 < Ropelli_> well you got a point there if we are relying on your definition of lowlevel language, pointers arent such

13:00 < Ropelli_> brb

13:01 * Max_ has a pointer.

13:01 < jonsykkel> 8 D

13:08 * Max_ finds C interesting.

13:08 < Max_> What's the difference between `(void *)0` and `(void *)(void *)0`?

13:10 < Ropelli_> well i guess conceptually pointers arent any more lowlevel than what basic data types are

13:10 < Max_> and, more importantly, where is the difference significant?

13:11 < Ropelli_> but they are linked to some lowlevel things, such as dereferencing

13:11 < Ropelli_> if you dereference basic data type to a pointer, it reveals the underlying byte sequence the data type has :p

13:12 < Max_> in C++?

13:12 < Ropelli_> which is different for big/little endian systems

13:12 < Ropelli_> yes and in C

13:12 < Max_> How do you dereference a type?

13:12 < Ropelli_> variable*

13:12 < Max_> Ah.

13:13 < Max_> in C, the bits of an integer's representation exist with respect to the representation of char.

13:13 < Max_> which is silly.

13:13 < Max_> It shouldn't specify anything about integers' representations.

13:15 < Max_> The only significant thing that would come out of that would be that calloc's zeroing effect would be almost useless and you wouldn't be able to memset an integer array to zero.

13:15 < Ropelli_> ok

13:15 < Max_> Anyway, where that (void *)(void *)0 thing is significant:

13:15 < Ropelli_> but the byte sequence thus is platform specific

13:16 < Max_> int (*a)(void) = (void *)(void *)0; /* bad: can't convert object pointer to function pointer */

13:16 < Max_> int (*a)(void) = (void *)0; /* okay: initialisation from null pointer constant */

13:17 < Max_> Ropelli_: that's not something you typically take advantage of though.

13:18 < Ropelli_> well it anyways makes the language lowlevel regarding to your definition of lowlevelness

13:18 < Max_> Ropelli_: you can create programs that behave differently on different platforms in virtually any programming language/environment.

13:19 < Ropelli_> yeah through platform specific apis

13:19 < Ropelli_> ofc

13:19 < Max_> The high-levelness comes from what it adds to solve the problem of working low-level.

13:20 < Ropelli_> yes

13:21 < Max_> and while it is possible to observe that different platforms represent values differently, it's never useful.

13:21 < Ropelli_> it is when its about serializing objects

13:22 < Max_> Not really.

13:23 < Max_> How do you serialise an object using its platform-dependent char-relative representation?

13:24 < Ropelli_> well

13:25 < Ropelli_> thats from where the standardization comes from :p

13:26 < Max_> Doesn't sound very standardised.

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--- Log opened Thu Jan 10 21:49:45 2013

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10:51 < Jappe2> will there be 3d option in elma 2

10:51 < Jappe2> like locked camera in 2d view but 3d nonetheless

23:12 < Smibu> probably not, it's useless

--- Day changed Tue Jan 22 2013

05:44 < Jappe2> it will attract lots of people from cod i think

07:50 < Max__> or those new PoP games.

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19:05 <@Smibu> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8775

19:22 < Jappe2> my suggestions: can number apples so have to take in order, give apples that count for more than 1 so if you take apple that counts as 2 you can skip 1 from somewhere else in the level

19:24 < Jappe2> with such would be nice to have some counter in-game how many need to take before can finish

19:41 <@Smibu> sounds reasonable, although the latter could be achieved just by placing multiple apples in same spot

19:41 <@Smibu> if i understood it correctly

19:52 <@Kopaka> would be easier to understand though if it's some apple wit a number on it

20:02 < Jappe2> yes can ofc place multiple apples in same spot

23:09 -!- Smibu changed the topic of #new-elma to: Elma 2 | http://wiki.elmaonline.net/Elma_2

--- Day changed Tue Jan 29 2013

12:02 < Jappe2> btw about lgr and such, it would be cool if level in balle for example has some texture from lgr you dont have it would download it automaticly to some folder and use it

12:03 < Jappe2> some option for it to turn on/off since not everyone wants to use them

19:56 < lousk> heah

19:56 < lousk> sash lots of offtopic in lev format tropic

19:57 < lousk> also i think it'd be easier if mans adopted a solid black ground texture

19:57 < lousk> no need for fancy pics and grass, already unnecessarily fancy features teh :-)

19:59 < jonsykkel> how to see how fast you are going then)

20:02 < Jappe2> well the only solution is to add mustache for kuski and you can see how fast he is going by judging the mustache movement

20:03 < jonsykkel> hm true

21:00 < Jappe2> what type of graphics elma 2 uses?

21:20 <@Smibu> what do you mean? if you're asking about image formats, they will be PNG and JPG

21:23 < Jappe2> okiz

21:23 < Jappe2> how are they scaled?

21:23 < Jappe2> does png support vector faks or?

21:26 <@Smibu> we havent thought that far yet.. but png doesnt support vector graphics

21:28 < Jappe2> okiz

21:33 <@Smibu> it will probably be possible to speficy scaling for each picture in the new lev format

22:04 <@Smibu> so of course you can design the pictures in SVG, if you want. they can always be converted if needed

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18:58 < juka> can abort own batles in new elma?

19:11 < Kopaka> I think that decision is quite far off

19:41 < juka> i didnt unserstand but ok

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22:37 < Smibu> jonsykILL: ops :)

23:46 < koffing> like it matters :D)

23:48 < koffing> dont ever op me i might deop all :O

23:50 < koffing> sirious: operator mode is very important to me.

--- Day changed Sun Mar 03 2013

10:17 < Smibu> guess we need to abandon this channel, as there's no ops here. here's new channel: #newelma

--- Log closed Sun Mar 03 10:18:00 2013

--- Log opened Sun Mar 03 10:03:48 2013

10:15 -!- Smibu changed the topic of #newelma to: Elma 2 | http://wiki.elmaonline.net/Elma_2

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19:36 < juka> will elma 2 work in windows8

19:36 < juka> ?

21:42 < Jappe2> will elma 2 run on magic 8-ball?

21:43 < Jappe2> all signs point to yes

21:58 < juka> nice

22:16 <@Smibu> yes i think someone tested it with win8 and said it worked

22:44 < Jappe2> what about openbsd

22:52 <@Smibu> possibly.. some info here http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq9.html#Interact

23:03 < lousk> oh

--- Day changed Sat Mar 16 2013

13:10 < koffing> test

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19:55 < juka> elma2 will work in 64 bit systm?

23:01 < Jappe2> it worked on my 64 bit system

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00:06 < juka> oke nice

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--- Log opened Thu Mar 28 23:15:51 2013

23:17 < Smibu> hmm.. it is hard to be a channel op...

23:41 < Jappe2> you could just set +R

23:50 < Smibu> mmh.. decent idea

23:55 < koffing> we cant speak without ops

--- Day changed Fri Mar 29 2013

09:02 < Smibu> new channel: #new_elma (leave this channel)

09:04 < Smibu> it has a reopping mode so no need to switch after this

--- Log closed Fri Mar 29 09:05:45 2013

--- Log opened Thu Mar 28 23:56:00 2013

23:56 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 1 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 0 normal]

23:56 -!- Irssi: Join to #new_elma was synced in 1 secs

--- Day changed Fri Mar 29 2013

01:31 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (87)

08:51 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (162)

08:54 -!- Smibu_away changed the topic of #new_elma to: Elma 2 | http://wiki.elmaonline.net/Elma_2

12:44 < igge> new)

12:46 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 4 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 3 normal]

15:10 < Pingywings> morn jon

15:10 < jonsykkel> morn plonky

15:10 < jonsykkel> ok

16:39 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 4 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 3 normal]

21:44 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 6 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal]

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17:18 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 9 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 7 normal]

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20:02 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 9 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal]

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20:37 < koffing> secret mode no wonder didnt find

20:52 < koffing> welkome Xarthok

--- Day changed Sat Apr 06 2013

12:53 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 12 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal]

--- Day changed Sun Apr 07 2013

23:13 <@Smibu> http://users.jyu.fi/~mikkalle/Elma/elma2_peek.png sneak peek for next version

23:14 < j`ey_> nice

23:14 < j`ey_> Smibu: i want to help ensure it works on linux

23:14 < j`ey_> im pro C++ programmer

23:14 <@Smibu> well we only use cross platform libraries, so no worries :)

23:15 < j`ey_> hm

23:15 < j`ey_> I saw some #include windows.h

23:15 < j`ey_> in some of the code.. i obtained

23:15 <@Smibu> hmm..? file name?

23:16 < j`ey_> dont have the code on this computer, sorry :/

23:16 <@Smibu> no matches for "windows.h" in the solution at least

23:17 < j`ey_> ok good

23:18 < j`ey_> Smibu: I would still like to help if possible

23:18 <@Smibu> well of course it would be nice to get some coders with experience

23:19 <@Smibu> recently the only active coder has been me :) ropelli has some businesses atm

23:19 <@Smibu> btw who are you? have not seen that nick before

23:19 < j`ey_> Smibu: i have experience

23:19 < j`ey_> im joey on eol

23:19 < j`ey_> only been playing for some months

23:19 < j`ey_> but know spef jon etc

23:20 <@Smibu> ah ok

23:20 <@Smibu> norwegian? :)

23:20 < j`ey_> spef can vouch for me being trustworthy, if it helps

23:20 < j`ey_> know him for like 4 years:)

23:20 < j`ey_> UK

23:20 <@Smibu> ah

23:20 < j`ey_> Smibu: do you know ARM?

23:21 <@Smibu> i only know that it's an abbreviation of "advanced risc machines" but that is all :)

23:21 < j`ey_> I work for them

23:21 <@Smibu> i only know x86 decently

23:21 < j`ey_> so you can know I have good C++ experience :)

23:21 <@Smibu> oh nice :o

23:22 <@Smibu> how many years exactly? at least more than 5 i suppose?

23:22 < j`ey_> no

23:23 < j`ey_> less than 5 doing C++

23:23 <@Smibu> ok, well still prolly more than i have (elma2 is kinda my first c++ project)

23:24 < j`ey_> ah :)

23:24 < j`ey_> Smibu: well idk how much time I have to give to code on it, but can at least help make sure it works well on linux

23:24 < j`ey_> and good refactoring etc

23:26 <@Smibu> yeah we havent even compiled for linux yet

23:27 <@Smibu> needs so much setupping i guess

23:27 < j`ey_> ive compiled some code for elma on linux :)

23:28 < j`ey_> only took few hours to get it working

23:28 < j`ey_> Smibu: if you give me access. :)

23:30 <@Smibu> Kopaka can give access (i'm not the svn admin)

23:31 <@jonsykkel> sorry for not asking smibu, i snet him the code if you were wondering

23:32 < j`ey_> jon)

23:32 <@Smibu> yeah well i kinda deduced that :) no problem

23:32 <@jonsykkel> hehe oki, thanks

23:32 <@jonsykkel> jey)

23:33 <@Smibu> j`ey_ has lauta account?

23:33 < j`ey_> Kopaka: im interest in SVN

23:33 < j`ey_> Smibu: no

23:33 <@Smibu> ok well it's not max necessary

23:34 < j`ey_> i can make, just havent

23:35 <@Smibu> oke

23:38 <@Smibu> what ide you use on Linux?

23:38 < j`ey_> vim

23:39 <@Smibu> powerful text editor:)

23:40 < j`ey_> yes

23:40 < j`ey_> just wait for Kopaka :)

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10:58 < zamps> have you ever thought about js/html5 elmA??

10:59 < j`ey_> yes

10:59 < zamps> with the separation of fizics and fps

10:59 < j`ey_> good idea imo

10:59 < j`ey_> what do you mean?

10:59 < zamps> well the way elma works now it would suck in js

11:00 <@Smibu> just that physics doesnt depend on frame rate

11:00 < j`ey_> ah

11:01 < j`ey_> as long as you can still emulate it perfectly

11:01 <@jonsykkel> wudnt that be difficult with js?

11:02 < j`ey_> why?

11:02 <@jonsykkel> doesnt it not have types or somethign

11:02 <@jonsykkel> i duno anything

11:02 < zamps> you hav to look in future dont unbelieve in urself

11:02 < j`ey_> it has types

11:02 <@jonsykkel> but lik, Number

11:02 < zamps> accessibility 10/10

11:02 < j`ey_> anywqy, write in C

11:02 <@jonsykkel> y elma on fone

11:02 < zamps> other parts dunno/10

11:03 < j`ey_> use compiler to js :)

11:05 < j`ey_> actually, good idea

11:05 < j`ey_> write elma engine in c++

11:05 < j`ey_> then the UI could be some native thing, or JS

11:06 < j`ey_> so abstract the UI

11:21 < Jappe2> will elma2 support oculus rift?

11:29 <@Smibu> just as surely as it will have 3D graphics

11:36 < zamps> but i want to see other side of apples

11:36 < zamps> oh wait i can activate animation never mind

11:36 < j`ey_> dark side of the apple

11:37 < zamps> what about dark side of killers

11:37 < zamps> that is a misteri

11:43 <@Smibu> so who is making the 32-bit lgr? jappe2 or leeland or someone else

11:43 < Jappe2> what noone asked me anything

11:43 < Jappe2> i guess leeland duno

11:44 <@Smibu> maybe i'll post some lauta topic about the graphics later today.. so it will be clearer then

11:44 < Jappe2> i started making my own full color lgr though

11:44 <@Smibu> you mean kinda converting the default lgr to 32-bit, or some totally different one?

11:45 < Jappe2> its similar to old but not totally same

13:09 <@Smibu> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8811

15:37 < Jappe2> lgrdev kit has all those images

15:38 < Jappe2> also in tga form, little bit better quality i guess

15:39 < Jappe2> could just gief link to that, should be on moposite duno

15:50 <@Kopaka> http://kopasite.net/up/0/lgrkit.rar

16:52 <@Smibu> oh nice

18:12 <@Smibu> what's the best linux distro? might try installing such in a VM

18:52 < j`ey_> ubun2

19:03 <@Smibu> expected answer :)

23:08 <@Smibu> http://askubuntu.com/q/250793 looks like latest ubuntu has a bug.. i got that in the vm too

23:09 < j`ey_> idk rety?

23:09 < j`ey_> retry

23:09 < j`ey_> or use older version

23:10 <@Smibu> yes restarted and got the same error.. probably need to dl 12.04

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19:58 < Jappe2> will there be level limits in elma 2?

19:58 < Jappe2> size etc

20:00 < lousk> has been some discussion of that on lauta iirc

20:05 < zamps> i would imagine yes because it's pos alredady elma just is fun if x > 250 INTERNAL EROR

20:14 < Jappe2> i would make a level so big no one would ever finish it and there would a pot of gold at the end

20:14 < Jappe2> but since it takes so long to finish know one would know if the pot of gold is a myth or nat

20:15 <@Kopaka> but you just told us

20:16 < Jappe2> im not turstworthy

--- Day changed Fri Apr 19 2013

08:16 <@ville_jelly> but I think I would just open this mythic lev in editor

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11:54 <@Smibu> 19:58 < Jappe2> will there be level limits in elma 2? - should be easy to remove all limits

14:07 < Xarthok> max suggestion: in editor you should be able to add things like polygons, food etc while playtesting the lev

14:09 <@ville_jelly> yes, realtime editing would be very najs but I guess it is a bit harder to code

15:37 < Xarthok> kind of like amle 2 editor

16:43 < zamps> one thing that is also theoreticaly pasibel: continue previous testride from any spot after doing some edits on teh lev. so you can test that 30 min ff without moving start

16:48 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 11 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 7 normal]

--- Day changed Wed Apr 24 2013

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23:36 <@Smibu> NEW VERSION! http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=229793#p229793

23:58 <@Smibu> tell if it seems to work or not. i go to sleep now

--- Day changed Sun Apr 28 2013

04:57 < Mpq> at first glance, grass is far from ideal.

04:58 < Mpq> sometimes not showing, some grass polygons, and small lines which shouldent be there

05:25 < Mpq> looks like grass poly wont display if topside crosses itself. int3/int33

13:24 <@Smibu> Mpq: by "small lines", do you mean this? http://users.jyu.fi/~mikkalle/Elma/elma2bug.png

13:55 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 11 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 7 normal]

18:07 < Mpq> Smibu_away, yeah that. but i had none so long. just short. specially in int05. all over the place.

--- Day changed Tue Apr 30 2013

20:33 <@Smibu> Mpq ok, i usually have smaller lines too

20:34 <@Smibu> but it seems to depend on graphics driver... i don't see the lines using my other driver

20:34 <@Smibu> no other comments about this version? :)

20:42 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 12 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal]

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22:38 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 11 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 7 normal]

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23:52 -!- Smibu changed the topic of #new_elma to: Elma 2 | http://wiki.elmaonline.net/Elma_2 | Latest update: 27.4.2013

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21:56 < Jappe2> you could make mode where bomb is attached to the bike where you have to drive a certain speed or the bike will explode and have keanu reeves quotes from the movie "speed"

21:56 < Jappe2> and have battles where last one to explode wins

--- Day changed Wed May 15 2013

--- Log opened Wed May 15 15:15:59 2013

15:15 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 10 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 7 normal]

15:16 -!- Irssi: Join to #new_elma was synced in 1 secs

--- Day changed Sat May 18 2013

22:09 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 11 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal]

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21:13 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 10 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal]

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23:30 < Smibu> is it just me or is there a very slight keypress delay in elma 2 compared to elma (when vsync off)?

23:30 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 10 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 9 normal]

23:32 < Smibu> pls test that

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--- Log opened Sun Jun 23 19:50:40 2013

19:50 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 10 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal]

19:50 -!- Irssi: Join to #new_elma was synced in 1 secs

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14:01 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (34)

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18:53 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 8 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 7 normal]

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21:07 <@Smibu> someone make a lev with about 100000 apples (that are scattered more or less evenly in the lev)

21:07 <@Smibu> i'll test something with it

21:10 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 9 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal]

21:16 < Ruotiukko> any other requirements than just a lev that has 10 000 apples?

21:17 < Ruotiukko> there is a square with them:

21:17 < Ruotiukko> http://kopasite.net/up/x46ad7ai914dzo7/sleba.lev

21:17 < Ruotiukko> here*

21:18 <@Smibu> not really, thx - except that is less that 100000 :)

21:18 <@Smibu> than*

21:18 < Ruotiukko> oh :G

21:19 < Ruotiukko> ez copy for more ?!

21:19 <@Smibu> yep

21:22 < Ruotiukko> moving 40 000 apples at once causes some lag

21:25 < Ruotiukko> zle crashed

21:30 < Ruotiukko> ok now succeeded in making 100 000 apples at least :

21:38 <@Smibu> was afk.. nice :) send that one

21:39 < Ruotiukko> it's too big

21:39 < Ruotiukko> doesnt matter, right?

21:39 <@Smibu> ye no, it's ok

21:40 < Ruotiukko> tried to scale first without being able to, then realized it's #new_elma

21:40 < Ruotiukko> http://kopasite.net/up/3qr1aohc0y5265r/sleba.lev

21:40 < Ruotiukko> 2,67mb :D

21:40 < Ruotiukko> sauna -->

21:42 <@Smibu> i'll do teh test later today

--- Day changed Wed Jul 24 2013

20:39 <@Smibu> yep the physics engine worked fine with sleba.lev :) it runs smoothly, thanks to kd-tree

20:39 <@Smibu> without the tree, it lags like hell

20:43 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 9 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal]

20:55 < Ruotiukko> nice!

20:55 < Ruotiukko> i mean, ZLE lagged like hell with 100 000 apples

20:55 < Ruotiukko> with relatively good computer

21:09 <@Smibu> i tested without rendering objects during gameplay... because that needs to be optimized too

21:10 <@Smibu> only collision detection is optimized so far

21:18 < zamps> maby no need to optimize for 100k :P

21:25 < Ruotiukko> chris levels get more dimensions with 100k apples

21:34 < zamps> btw smibu did you know elma loads some levs max slow, like lev with 200 polygons where each polygon is inside the next one

21:34 <@Smibu> only problem with the tree is that it takes a while to build it when starting lev... it took maybe some 20 secs to initialize the tree

21:34 <@Smibu> hmm

21:35 <@Smibu> actually no, i didnt know that

21:35 <@Smibu> but it's not necessarily the physics engine that is causing the slowness

21:35 <@Smibu> because elma initializes lots of graphics stuff too

21:36 <@Smibu> can you send example lev?

21:36 < zamps> http://kopasite.net/up/w0e77k4uyy0hvb6/out3.lev

21:36 < zamps> yeah it loads on first enter for liek 1 min on my comp

21:37 < zamps> so dont recommend playing :P

21:37 < zamps> http://kopasite.net/up/etrxwt59l23424i/out5.lev this is another testlev loads only 2 sec

21:38 < zamps> i tested some shit how low fps gets or something with that

21:38 < zamps> when viewport is at megamany poly

21:38 <@Smibu> out3.lev loads in 1sec in elma2 at least

21:39 < zamps> cool

21:39 <@Smibu> and out5.lev loads instantly

21:39 < zamps> dunno what stuff elma does

21:40 < zamps> http://kopasite.net/up/9j2h67gj7cj36yw/out4.lev this is also funny lev it looks 'wrong' in elma

21:40 < zamps> if in editor you zoom max in you see it should look different :D

21:42 < zamps> also im not sure if im crazy or is teh out4 more 'grippier' because there's hundreds of polygons next to each other very closely

21:42 <@Smibu> out4 lol lev

21:42 < zamps> prolly crazy

21:47 <@Smibu> in elma2 it looks good/bad depending on zoom level

21:48 <@Smibu> cant say anything about the grip :)

21:54 <@Smibu> you have some other interesting out* levs? :)

22:37 < zamps> nop

22:43 <@Smibu> http://wiki.elmaonline.net/Elma_2 started "Planned replay format" section... comments welcome from everyone

22:48 < lousk> how about flagtag replays

22:49 < lousk> full balle with every player saved in one rec

22:49 < lousk> oh but i guess that's not a rec format problem, nvm

22:50 <@Smibu> hm, good remark

22:51 < lousk> i guess sash would also be interesting for apple and first finish balles

22:52 <@Smibu> oh ye apple balles need to be considered too... maybe just concatenate all rides on which at least 1 apple was taken

22:53 < lousk> wouldn't it be simpler to save all rides as recs? locally

22:53 < lousk> ok not simpler but why nat =)

22:54 < lousk> preferences ofc pasibel

22:54 <@Smibu> isn't it easier to watch them when they're all in one?

22:54 <@Smibu> ye

22:55 < lousk> sure

22:55 < lousk> sorry, hev no solid idea in head :D

22:55 < lousk> so just shouting things as usual

22:57 < zamps> lousk giv some youtube music playlist :{

22:58 <@Smibu> my prediction is that flagtag replays (with all players) will be hardest to implement... if we want such replays

22:59 < lousk> zamps i dont listen on youtube :{

23:00 < lousk> yeo i guess need elma2 to make teh replay in that

23:00 < lousk> jesus i can't talk today

23:00 < lousk> i meant to say elma server

23:01 < lousk> other way could be: every player's client saves every run with timestamps and server just compiles them

23:01 < lousk> weird

23:02 < jonsykkel> but lag

23:02 <@Smibu> yeah, need to think what the best way is

23:03 < lousk> if server makes the whole rec by itself, bikes in rec will sometimes look mongo because of lag

23:03 < lousk> but at least flag position accurate

23:06 < zamps> jonsyg giv some youtube music playlist :{

23:06 < lousk> why nat grooveshark

23:07 < jonsykkel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOibIxl3dLo&list=FLRMHtm2FXuFTbRHDo3KRD0Q&index=4

23:07 < jonsykkel> :}

23:07 < lousk> turkish quality

23:08 < jonsykkel> next in that list best ever

23:10 -!- Irssi: #new_elma: Total of 9 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal]

23:11 < lousk> uyp

23:13 < zamps> no good music genre in grooveshark

23:14 < lousk> is like spotify but no ads

23:19 < zamps> yes i used million years ago but then forgot

23:19 < lousk> oky

--- Day changed Fri Jul 26 2013

--- Day changed Sat Jul 27 2013

11:36 <@Smibu> 21:34 <@Smibu> only problem with the tree is that it takes a while to build it when starting lev <--- that was wrong, the loading time was because balazs used bubble sort for sorting objects :) now this is fixed too

20:30 <@Smibu> someone, make icon for elma2, sizes 16x16, 32x32 and 64x64 pixels. or, just make 256x256 and it can be shrinked as needed

20:45 < zamps> mayk icon competition

20:49 <@Smibu> what's a good prize

20:53 < lousk> name in credits? :P

20:53 <@Smibu> yeah was gonna suggest that :)

20:54 < lousk> get some leeland to make menu graphics and sash

20:54 < lousk> oh but vj is on that? :o

20:54 <@Smibu> i don't know, but yea, i think vj said he can work on menu gfx

20:54 < lousk> very nice then

21:02 < zamps> prize is your icon is chosen, voted by community or sach

21:03 < zamps> just like eol site theme once upon a time

21:08 < lousk> yeo just make a topic and it'll appear :p

21:13 <@Smibu> ye i'll make it today/tomorrow

21:14 < zamps> so what other icons can you anticipate other than kusky head, flower, apple, killer

21:15 < zamps> and wheel

21:16 < lousk> your face

21:16 < zamps> didnt see that coming

21:17 < lousk> nat the worst idea imo

21:17 < lousk> still hev pro hair?

21:17 < lousk> im dont remember last year fem pics :(

21:23 <@Smibu> Elma.exe icon mirrored

--- Day changed Sun Jul 28 2013

11:32 <@ville_j> I tried making menu graphs but I did not understand how it workade

11:33 <@ville_j> I mean how teh shapes are defined... lajk eh...

11:36 <@ville_j> with teh current shape of the top bar at least is impsy to make elmish

22:39 <@Smibu> any opinions on the deadline of the icon competition? going to put 30th sep because i believe that should be enough, and wc6 will start in sep anyway

22:39 < lousk> heh, "will start in" highlight

22:40 < lousk> sounds good

22:42 <@Smibu> done: http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8922

22:45 <@ville_j> nice

23:05 <@Smibu> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=231555#p231555

23:10 < lousk> aw sweet, ponies!

23:10 <@Smibu> ;)

23:16 <@Smibu> ville_j about the menus.. i haven't myself tried to edit the graphics, so i actually don't know that well how hard it is to edit them.. need to investigate later maybe

23:18 <@ville_j> its ez to edit teh ofc but you cant make them different shape

23:18 <@ville_j> I mean there is no transparency or something

23:18 <@ville_j> the are on which the graphics are drawn is somehow defined regardles of teh picture

23:18 <@ville_j> area*

23:19 <@Smibu> hmm

23:20 <@Smibu> http://www.cegui.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Downloads have you tried the imageset editor in that page?

23:20 <@Smibu> (i haven't)

23:21 <@Smibu> hmm

23:21 <@Smibu> download "unified editor" instead

23:21 <@Smibu> it's probably tedious to edit graphics without a proper editor

23:22 < Lukazz> oh, this is a thing

23:22 <@ville_j> no I just edited teh on photoshop4

23:22 <@ville_j> -4

23:23 < Lukazz> ih

23:23 <@ville_j> hev to try that editor later

23:23 <@Smibu> oki

23:23 < Lukazz> i vote for linux version too))

23:24 <@Smibu> you have linux?

23:24 < Lukazz> i'm planning to change to linux, but elma is kinda holding me back

23:24 <@Smibu> heh ok

23:24 < Lukazz> don't play any other games, but a PC without elma is impy

23:27 < lousk> elma isn't a game

23:28 < Lukazz> elma is apple in turkish

23:28 < lousk> yesh, i'm drinking elma çayı as we speak =D

23:31 < zamps> elma is al in zampe hart =P

23:31 < lousk> hart sport

23:33 <@Smibu> gn

--- Day changed Mon Jul 29 2013

03:45 < Hozp> Hello

--- Log closed Tue Jul 30 18:35:44 2013

--- Log opened Wed Jul 31 01:44:45 2013

01:44 < teh_mila_> hm almost forgot that this is going on

01:44 < teh_mila_> so whats teh progress

01:44 < teh_mila_> eol redone?

01:45 < teh_mila_> or nat

01:45 < teh_mila_> or still 2 years more needed:)

02:08 < teh_mila_> damez, nabs coding = no time for me

20:01 < Smibu> teh_mila_: why don't you download the latest version and see for yourself? :)

21:10 < Xarthok-> he will make his own elma 2

21:10 < Xarthok-> with hookers and blackjack

21:23 < zamps> y hokers and black ppl called jack good coders

--- Day changed Mon Aug 05 2013

22:45 < Smibu> testing utf-8 åäö Ђ Љ Њ Ћ Џ ђ љ њ ћ џ

22:46 < Smibu> works, good

--- Log opened Fri Aug 09 22:48:36 2013

22:48 < Xarthok-> scriptable events and movable objects and other shenanigans in elma 2 editor suggested before?

22:48 < Xarthok-> like in amle2

22:53 < Smibu> yes they have been suggested... but all sorts of moving stuff (excluding the bike) is unlikely to be implemented. moving objects would be "somewhat easy" to make, but i'm not sure if it's that great feature

22:55 < Smibu> but what about a whole new object type? like if you take it, something happens (such as lose ability to gas, etc)

22:56 < Smibu> or is that what you meant by "scriptable events"? :)

23:18 < zamps> mongo melon

23:18 < zamps> can define wat happen, polygon disappear, or giv some cripple

23:26 < Smibu> yeah i guess those are the options for "what happens". polygon disappearance would need some coding... but surely it's possible

23:40 < Smibu> and i guess it could be defined to "remove cripple" too

23:41 < Smibu> that way you could make sections of lev with no gas, etc..

23:42 < Smibu> what about "disable gravity" apple?

23:42 < Smibu> stupid or not? :)

--- Day changed Sat Aug 10 2013

00:19 < zamps> as long as it's ez to implement . also ppl dont have to use them if nat whane

00:35 < Xarthok-> also when some effect takes place put small text on screen like GRAVITY UP or GAS DISABLED or EVENT TRIGGERED

02:02 < lousk> yeo some hideabel consoleish thing

16:24 < lousk> can merge levs with SLE?

16:24 < lousk> cane nat find

16:24 < lousk> maybe nat then

19:33 < koffing> wat is sle

19:43 < lousk> smibu lev editor

21:26 < Hosp> koffing=GRob?

21:26 < koffing> im juka

21:27 < Hosp> kk

--- Day changed Mon Aug 19 2013

20:24 < Smibu> zamps: yep, no grav apples are max ez to make. xarthok-: yep, text hints are must. lousk: nope :/

20:33 < Smibu> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=elma+2 first result here :O

20:40 < lousk> nope what? polygon objects? :-D

20:42 < lousk> i should cut back on shitty iwantapony feature requests

20:45 < Smibu> oh totally forgot that one

20:45 < Smibu> polygon objects, hmm

20:45 < Smibu> was responding to "can merge levs with SLE?"

20:48 < Smibu> how could they be differentiated from normal polys?

20:49 < lousk> ahhh ok

20:49 < lousk> i dunno if worth the effort at all

20:49 < Smibu> the annoying thing is that the physics engine doesn't have a clue about polygons, only edges

20:50 < Smibu> so it would need some coding, ye.. can't say how much exactly

20:50 < lousk> but they could behave as objects, only having different shapes than norm objects

20:50 < lousk> silly idea maybe :P

20:51 < lousk> here's one that people mention periodically in apple, ff, ft and sash balles

20:51 < lousk> zoom buttons

20:51 < lousk> or switching to freelook during a run

20:51 < Smibu> already implemented ;)

20:51 < lousk> oh sick

20:51 < lousk> much love

20:52 < Smibu> have you not tested the latest version at all? :) because it's hard not to notice that feature, imo

20:53 < lousk> hmm... now i wonder if i have the latest

20:55 < Smibu> latest version was uploaded in april, and previous in december

20:58 < lousk> ah ye, cursor moves very slowly in menu

20:58 < lousk> not sure if i've managed to start a ride yet

20:58 < Smibu> hm? is it like totally impractically slow?

20:59 < lousk> yeh, position takes 10+ seconds to update

20:59 < Smibu> oh wth :/

20:59 < Smibu> did the previous version have the same problem?

21:00 < lousk> not sure

21:00 < Smibu> what OS?

21:00 < lousk> win7

21:00 < Smibu> ok so same as me.. hm

21:00 < Smibu> ah now i know..

21:00 < Smibu> it's because it's loading all levs :P

21:01 < Smibu> so if you have many, it'll take a while

21:01 < lousk> ah, right

21:01 < Smibu> you can just press enter in main menu to open play menu

21:04 < lousk> i'll try with a smaller lev folder

21:05 < Smibu> yeah then it should definitely work

21:10 < lousk> oh wow. both zoom and freelook toggle

21:12 < lousk> sorreys for ignorance =D

21:16 < Smibu> maybe many ppl is annoyed by lev loading

21:16 < Smibu> will need to fix that somehow

--- Day changed Fri Aug 23 2013

22:32 < Smibu> did jappe's all posts get removed from lauta?

22:35 < jonsykkel> think he changed name to User

22:35 < Markku-> User has only 72 posts

22:35 < Smibu> yep

22:35 < jonsykkel> hm oh

22:36 < Smibu> and there's no Steve anymore either

22:36 < jonsykkel> =-(

22:36 < Smibu> who makes these kind of silent deletions?

23:06 < Kopaka> jappe

23:06 < Kopaka> and bartek :)

23:07 < Kopaka> anyway user joined 2013 so not jappe's account

23:07 < Kopaka> not original one anyway

23:13 < jonsykkel> ye but has posts from 2005

23:14 < jonsykkel> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5998&p=163651#p163651

23:14 < jonsykkel> prety sure is the same

23:21 < Ruotiukko> where to get this musics

23:21 < Kopaka> heh yeah

--- Log closed Wed Aug 28 18:11:39 2013

--- Log opened Thu Aug 29 21:09:48 2013

21:09 < Lukazz> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8937

21:09 < Lukazz> smibu answer if can

22:59 < Xarthok-> is "elasto mania" trademarked and are its elements copyrighted? wander

--- Day changed Fri Aug 30 2013

17:37 < Smibu> Lukazz: it'll be an option in elma 2

--- Day changed Sun Sep 01 2013

02:41 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (3)

--- Log opened Fri Sep 20 04:46:49 2013

04:46 < Hosponk> Hello

--- Day changed Sun Sep 22 2013

18:07 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (227)

18:34 -!- Smibu changed the topic of #new_elma to: Elma 2 | http://wiki.elmaonline.net/Elma_2 | Latest update: 27.4.2013

--- Log closed Wed Sep 25 15:15:24 2013

--- Log opened Sun Sep 29 18:42:14 2013

18:42 < juka> irc

18:43 < lousk> juka

18:48 < Hosp> hoi

21:35 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (67)

--- Log opened Thu Oct 17 23:41:49 2013

23:41 < ville__j> can u kick ville_j

--- Day changed Sat Oct 19 2013

11:31 < koffing> [11:11:11] * finman (asdsa@dsl-jklbrasgw2-50dcfd-171.dhcp.inet.fi) has joined #new_elma

11:52 < ville__j> okay

--- Day changed Wed Oct 30 2013

17:00 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (166)

--- Day changed Sat Nov 02 2013

10:28 < jonsykkel> eg is been eated

10:29 < koffing> nice

10:29 < jonsykkel> ty

10:29 < koffing> np

--- Day changed Tue Nov 26 2013

16:17 < Blaz_TNK> )

16:17 < chris__> hi

--- Log opened Fri Dec 13 16:15:21 2013

16:15 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (1379257)

16:15 <@Smibu> was anything discussed between Nov 26 and now? i got disconnected at some point

16:19 < Markku-> someone joined to post this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmiwEgaqPRQ

16:19 < Markku-> fishmoto-like mobile elma clone

16:20 < lousk> yeo dont think theer was any ontopic

16:20 < Markku-> ye that's pretty much all the discussion

16:22 <@Smibu> ok :) well, i downvoted that vid twice now

16:22 < lousk> ok ;D

16:23 < Markku-> ye downvote deserved, he didn't stop at the stop sign

16:24 < Markku-> showing bad example to kids

--- Day changed Sun Dec 15 2013

19:37 < juka> hi chris__

19:37 < chris__> hi juka

--- Log opened Wed Dec 18 22:25:21 2013

22:25 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (21197)

--- Day changed Sat Jan 04 2014

15:32 -!- Smibu changed the topic of #new_elma to: Elma 2 | http://wiki.elmaonline.net/Elma_2

--- Day changed Sat Jan 25 2014

20:02 <@Smibu> http://i.imgur.com/saY2E0E.png

20:04 < ville_j> grazy

20:04 <@Smibu> internal lev list is somehow messed up in ubuntu, need to debug that one, otherwise seems to work

20:11 < lousk> :o~

21:16 < koffing> elma 2 pos mobile play?

21:28 <@Smibu> dunno how easy to port to mobile, i've never developed anything related to mobile

21:29 <@Smibu> i probably wouldn't play elma on mobile anyway :)

21:51 < koffing> i too wouldnt but thinked because ezula comment here http://www.aapeli.com/community/user/juka/gallery/view/elmeri

21:55 <@Smibu> oh

--- Log opened Wed Feb 05 16:45:21 2014

16:45 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (5224)

--- Day changed Sun Feb 23 2014

19:51 < ribot> hey, are you gonna get some new internals for elma2

19:51 < chris__> I can make some

19:52 < ribot> there could be an interesting discussion about how to make them

19:52 < ribot> to have different types of levels

19:52 < ribot> maybe a collection of best levels out there

19:54 < ribot> internals could be named old internals

20:14 < lousk> why set one pack above all

20:17 < Markku-> one pack to rule the mall

20:19 < Markku-> just mayke ingame rating system and the best levs will stay on top after get enough votes to stabilize it

20:19 < lousk> ye!

21:13 < ribot> oke

21:25 < ribot> new flagtag battle soon

--- Day changed Sun Mar 09 2014

17:24 < chris__> hi

--- Day changed Fri Mar 14 2014

15:10 < chris__> hi

--- Day changed Sat Mar 15 2014

10:45 < chris__> hi

10:49 < juka> hi chris__

10:55 < chris__> hi juka

11:09 < chris__> bye

--- Log opened Wed Mar 19 22:15:21 2014

22:15 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (118057)

22:17 < lousk> nice, summoned

22:18 <@Smibu> best irc feature

22:19 < lousk> 17:03:35 * chris__ (~chris@87-206-33-50.dynamic.chello.pl) has joined #new_elma

22:19 < lousk> 21:04:48 <chris__> cu all

22:19 < lousk> 21:04:58 * chris__ (~chris@87-206-33-50.dynamic.chello.pl) Quit (Connection reset by peer)

22:19 < lousk> 21:16:56 <lousk> false alarm

22:19 < lousk> 21:17:12 <lousk> no smibu here

22:41 < finman> magix words

--- Day changed Sat Mar 29 2014

20:41 < finman> wonder what's up with this :G

--- Day changed Sun Mar 30 2014

11:36 < vatipaa> hi chris__

--- Day changed Fri Apr 04 2014

22:18 <@Smibu> 20:41 < finman> wonder what's up with this :G <-- ??

--- Day changed Sat Apr 05 2014

14:59 < lousk> i beleev he is disappointed at lack of updates

--- Day changed Mon Apr 07 2014

19:24 <@Smibu> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=235431#p235431

21:21 <@Smibu> no linux users here?

21:25 < lousk> some linux users in this topic at least http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4332

21:25 < lousk> Max_ also plays on linux

21:27 <@Smibu> mmh ok, i asked on #across now, maybe i'll get some answers

21:28 < lousk> hoep so

21:39 < josanoke> hi S

21:40 <@Smibu> hi :-D

21:40 < josanoke> i use linux ubuntu 32bit now

21:40 <@Smibu> 32bit? hmmm ok, what version?

21:43 <@Smibu> like, 12.04, 13.10 or somethign else?

21:43 <@Smibu> not sure if it matters that much though

21:43 < josanoke> 12.04

21:45 <@Smibu> ok

--- Day changed Wed Apr 16 2014

19:07 < chris__> hi

--- Log closed Wed Apr 23 20:56:15 2014

--- Log opened Mon Apr 28 20:25:37 2014

20:25 <@Smibu> NEW: http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=235692#p235692

20:34 < chris__> WOW

20:34 < chris__> I mean seriously wow

20:36 < chris__> can I suggest some feature?

20:37 <@Smibu> sure:)

20:37 < chris__> what about changing zoom in game

20:37 < chris__> without leaving level?

20:38 < lousk> already implemented

20:38 < chris__> :>

20:38 < chris__> I couldnt test

20:38 < chris__> cos my was carshing

20:38 < chris__> crashing*

20:38 < lousk> i asked same here some time ago

20:38 < lousk> and smibu was liek do you even test

20:38 < lousk> :))

20:38 <@Smibu> haha

20:38 < chris__> :>

20:38 <@Smibu> ye, use + and -

20:39 < chris__> I will recreate earth

20:39 < chris__> in elma 2

20:39 < chris__> the ciricle

20:42 < Bjenn> aa hej

20:42 < Bjenn> halla

20:43 < roopemies> hi

20:43 < chris__> hi

20:43 < Bjenn> what is this elma 2

20:43 < roopemies> duno

20:43 < roopemies> seems najs

20:44 < roopemies> a bit laggy with my comp too

20:44 <@Smibu> hij

20:44 < roopemies> though is pretty new gfx card etc

20:44 < Bjenn> holy smokes is that lev size for real?

20:44 <@Smibu> what fps?

20:44 < lousk> is it menu laggy or game itself?

20:45 < roopemies> game itself

20:45 < roopemies> duno smibu, the default

20:46 < lousk> cane see avg fps after run

20:46 < roopemies> oh

20:46 < roopemies> 60

20:46 < roopemies> where change

20:48 < makikman> MSVCR100 ? missing

20:48 <@Smibu> makikman: and you installed the visual c++ runtime?

20:49 <@Smibu> roope: can't change fps atm

20:52 < roopemies> made elma 2 jaws wr ;O

20:53 <@Smibu> nice :D:P

20:53 < Bjenn> roopemies: I also played jaws)

20:53 < roopemies> daym

20:53 < roopemies> time?

20:54 < Bjenn> didn't finish

20:54 < roopemies> nab

20:54 < Bjenn> where change zoom Smibu

20:54 < lousk> do you think you'll integrate elmanager into elma2?

20:54 < Bjenn> I can't feel any difference in physics, is it all the same atm?

20:55 < roopemies> ye was just wandering that very nice physics, can't feel any difference

20:55 < lousk> zoom + -

20:55 < lousk> physics feel very diff for me, probably because never had sach high fps :D

20:55 < roopemies> woaah

20:55 < roopemies> zoom

20:56 <@Smibu> bjenn + - yes, but the keys might be slightly different on different keyboards... if all else fails, you can set them in options

20:56 < roopemies> hmm

20:56 < roopemies> how find original zoom

20:56 < Bjenn> kk

20:56 < lousk> could hev some default zoom level option and reset button

20:57 < roopemies> ye

20:57 < roopemies> hmm simple(ithink) ui suggestion

20:57 <@Smibu> yeah no reset zoom -button yet

20:57 < roopemies> in play menu could change between internals/externals with left/right arrow keys

20:57 < lousk> tab

20:58 <@Smibu> well you can with tab

20:58 < roopemies> so complex

20:58 < roopemies> when changing between levs with up down keys, then gotta reach to tab ;O

20:58 <@Smibu> well thats true maybe

20:59 < lousk> ez put that in key config, no?

21:00 < Bjenn> ye it's sick fps

21:00 < Bjenn> i made 14.15 in int01

21:00 < lousk> i know dude im geting over 100

21:00 < Bjenn> 4000

21:00 <@Smibu> :D

21:01 < makikman> clicking on 2nd screen tabs out elma2, possible nat to ? :*

21:03 < roopemies> probably top on my wishlist would be better navigation with arrow keys

21:03 < roopemies> like in main menu could exit with going to exit button with keys instead of mouse

21:04 < josanoke> yes would be nice to have as similar menus as in norm elma as possible

21:05 < lousk> but it so simple

21:05 < josanoke> or not as similar as possible

21:05 < lousk> theres so much pasibility for more function

21:05 < josanoke> similar but much more functions

21:06 < roopemies> ofc useful to have more functions with mouse, but should be pos to make the most common navigation fully with keys too

21:06 < josanoke> indeed roope

21:07 < roopemies> trust me i know, i've been to user interface and usability course ;O

21:07 <@Smibu> makikman: you mean you have 2 monitors?

21:07 < makikman> choosed a bad resolution, cant change it back now :-)

21:07 < makikman> yea

21:07 < makikman> bat its damn smooth and crazy zoom <3

21:07 < Bjenn> I think my GPU goes insane

21:08 <@Smibu> makikman delete options.dat if needed

21:08 <@Smibu> it will reset everything

21:08 < makikman> ty

21:09 < roopemies> but ye, zoom is smooth as jonsykkel's butt

21:09 < roopemies> that's a big plus

21:09 < roopemies> can be very useful in flagtags and sash

21:10 < Bjenn> but I miss being able to set a value to the zoom

21:10 < Bjenn> cuz I'm used to a certain zoom

21:10 < roopemies> yeh that's true too

21:10 < roopemies> maybe some key to reset to default zoom

21:11 < lousk> maby many zoom slots

21:11 < lousk> for even quicker flagchecking :d

21:11 < roopemies> yeh

21:12 < lousk> smibu hev to put out buggier versions to get bug reports instead of endless feature requests :)

21:12 < roopemies> xd

21:12 <@Smibu> yea:P

21:12 < roopemies> hmm

21:12 < roopemies> sometimes when entering lev with like gas down it doesn't start gassing in lev

21:13 < roopemies> haven't found any certain thing where this happens but happens once in a while

21:13 < roopemies> could be suka at some ff

21:14 < makikman> cant finish autolev5 as auto =,-D

21:14 < roopemies> impsy lev anyway

21:15 <@Smibu> yea because it's made for a different timestep value (used in testing)

21:15 < josanoke> i cant finish either

21:15 < josanoke> fps 59

21:16 < roopemies> 18.49

21:20 < roopemies> 14.158 ;o

21:20 < chris__> that lev is huge

21:21 < roopemies> najs to die at flower

21:21 < roopemies> after 2 weeks of playing

21:21 < chris__> 4 minutes dirving at still no end

21:21 < chris__> I will test more later

21:21 < chris__> cu

21:22 < makikman> 14:40...1 14:401 :D fun

21:22 < roopemies> 13.991 ;O

21:23 <@Smibu> yea it took 9:33:33 to drive to flower in MEGAHUGE

21:23 < roopemies> 9 hours?

21:24 <@Smibu> not quite :D just mins

21:24 < roopemies> lel

21:24 < makikman> left to right?`

21:24 < lousk> and can ez make bigger lev, right?

21:24 < makikman> inbreastive

21:24 <@Smibu> ye, as long as memory allows

21:25 <@Smibu> basically, the bounding rectangle of the lev determines the mem usage

21:25 < roopemies> tl is rubbing his hands

21:25 < lousk> oki

21:25 < lousk> new wave of speedloops coming

21:25 < roopemies> starts 5gb lev, 12 mins balletime

21:25 < makikman> could make weekend adventure levs

21:25 <@Smibu> so you could make very tall but narrow levs, etc

21:29 < lousk> brilliant

21:30 < roopemies> not pos to check recs?

21:30 < makikman> managed to esc 00,00,000 <3

21:30 < roopemies> or are they even saved anywhere

21:31 <@Smibu> recs can be saved but not watched ingame (need elma on external replayer)

21:31 <@Smibu> or*

21:31 < makikman> i like that u can escape function P

21:32 < lousk> 9:24:389 in megahuge

21:32 < lousk> get good

21:34 < roopemies> 13.888 in autolev5

21:35 <@Smibu> hmm lousk.. saved rec?

21:35 < lousk> ye

21:35 < lousk> did some volts and stuff

21:35 < lousk> :D

21:36 <@Smibu> ah ok... but how did you get better than me, i just drove all the time

21:36 <@Smibu> or then i must remember wrong

21:36 < lousk> maybe can gain speed with volts

21:36 < lousk> i can try again with nothing but gas

21:36 <@Smibu> ok if you bother :D

21:36 < lousk> well dont hev to press it after 15sec

21:37 <@Smibu> haha so that's the difference.. i held gas down for 9 mins

21:38 <@Smibu> wasnt sure if it would slow down if i didnt

21:38 < lousk> hm is it

21:38 < lousk> it shouldnt slow down at least

21:38 < lousk> or?

21:39 <@Smibu> not sure really, need to do some tests

21:40 < lousk> i think zweq demonstrated that you can gain speed on horizontal ground with nothing but volts

21:40 < lousk> very minimal speed but maybe could amount to 9sec in sach long lev? o,o

21:40 <@Smibu> ye, thats a possible explanation

21:42 < roopemies> ahaha

21:43 < roopemies> was holding gas for whole megahuge lev

21:43 < lousk> :D

21:43 < roopemies> then axxudentally pressed . (brake)

21:43 < roopemies> at some 8 mins

21:43 < lousk> gadame

21:43 < roopemies> and död

21:43 < lousk> btw dont hev to gas

21:43 < roopemies> ye was reading irc at the same time

21:43 < lousk> oke

21:43 < roopemies> but was testage

21:43 < lousk> okeoke :)

21:46 < lousk> wow

21:46 < lousk> 9.33.328 without volts

21:47 < lousk> maybe it is volts :D

21:47 <@Smibu> haha yea, must be

21:48 < lousk> sick

21:48 < josanoke> elma physics are weird indeed =S

21:48 < lousk> but i did random volts back and forth... wander what gives most

21:49 < makikman> imo left :*

21:49 < lousk> and also wander does it give permanent speed or temporary

21:49 < lousk> i guess perma since 9sec :o

21:50 < lousk> oh it was actually 9.33:347

21:50 < lousk> top right timer shows diff

21:50 < roopemies> ye

21:50 < roopemies> but original elma timer shows diff sometimes too

21:51 < lousk> ye

21:51 <@Smibu> ye they're slightly different atm but it will be fixed

21:51 <@Smibu> i dont remember which one i looked when i finished

21:51 < lousk> i guess close enough to draw conclusions :D

21:52 <@Smibu> yeah

21:55 < roopemies> my tyme 9:33:334

21:56 < josanoke> i think surprisingly small differences

21:56 < lousk> my too

21:56 < lousk> happy surprise

21:57 < josanoke> in norm elma in similar levs (but just some 10sec) ez 0.02 differences in battles

22:04 < lousk> hundreds of dogs run past in a neat line

22:08 < lousk> 9:33:679 with 2 left volts

22:09 <@Smibu> did you volt after you reached "max" speed?

22:09 < lousk> ye

22:13 < lousk> http://kopasite.net/up/0/MEGAHUGE924.rec

22:14 < lousk> someone cane merge with some

22:16 < lousk> i tried elmanager, ran much too slowly to see precise things

22:16 <@Smibu> heh elmanager cant show ground texture properly when watching rec.. too huge lev

22:16 < lousk> new! crashed btw so you win :D

22:17 <@Smibu> hah! :D

22:20 <@Smibu> http://i.imgur.com/Fs2v3ny.png probably easy fix

22:20 < lousk> hoh

22:31 < jonsykkel> pro apdate

22:32 < jonsykkel> textures still a bit upside down

22:33 <@Smibu> hmm

22:33 <@Smibu> you mean ground,sky?

22:33 < jonsykkel> ye

22:33 <@Smibu> oh ok, never paid attention

22:35 < jonsykkel> oke

22:43 <@Smibu> labs still getting the menu bug.. no one else has had it i guess

23:20 < roopemies> what bug

23:21 < roopemies> oh ye

23:21 < roopemies> weird

--- Day changed Thu May 01 2014

22:31 < teh_mila> i guess 3 more years to wait now

22:31 < teh_mila> or 10

22:35 < ville_j> good guessing there

22:37 < teh_mila> damez

--- Day changed Fri May 02 2014

21:50 < juka> hi chris__

21:50 < chris__> hi juka

--- Day changed Sat May 03 2014

01:41 < b0ne> how many years left until release osv

01:42 < b0ne> lousk:

01:42 < b0ne> finman:

01:42 < finman> b0ne

01:43 < finman> 5,6

16:13 < chris__> aked

16:13 < chris__> hi

--- Day changed Sun May 04 2014

13:48 < chris__> hi

13:59 < juka> hi chris__

14:01 < chris__> hi juka

--- Day changed Tue May 06 2014

14:01 < Bjenn> finman: )

14:01 < Bjenn> balls)

14:02 < finman> !

14:03 < chris__> hi

--- Day changed Fri May 09 2014

17:37 < Bjenn> juka: )

20:44 < juka> hi chris__

20:44 < chris__> hi jonsykkel

20:44 < chris__> hibghynjt

20:45 < chris__> hi juka

--- Day changed Sat May 10 2014

12:34 < juka> hi chris__

12:34 < Bjenn> hi juka

12:34 < juka> hi bjenn

12:35 < chris__> hi juka

12:35 < chris__> hi Bjenn

12:35 < chris__> hi all :>

--- Day changed Sun May 11 2014

13:41 < chris__> hi

13:42 < Bjenn> hi

13:45 < chris__> hi Bjenn

--- Day changed Wed May 14 2014

17:57 < chris__> hi

--- Day changed Fri May 16 2014

18:04 < juka> hi chris__

18:11 < chris__> hi juka

--- Day changed Tue May 20 2014

15:18 < Bjenn> aa halla

15:31 < chris__> hi

17:53 < ville_j> oooo najs surprise lat-sui 1-3

17:54 < ville_j> oops wrong chan!

17:54 < chris__> nice

17:54 < chris__> :D

--- Day changed Sun Jun 01 2014

15:58 < chris__> hi

16:00 < juka> hi chris__

16:01 < chris__> hi juka

--- Day changed Sat Jun 07 2014

10:53 < juka> hi chris__

10:54 < chris__> hi juka

19:42 < juka> will there be teleports in elma 2?

--- Day changed Sun Jun 15 2014

19:27 <@Smibu> juka: dunno, but maybe not. depends how badly ppl would want those

--- Day changed Mon Jun 16 2014

14:24 < chris__> hi juka

14:27 < juka> hi chris__

14:35 < Bjenn> hi

14:37 < juka> hi Bjenn

14:37 < chris__> hi Bjenn

14:38 < Bjenn> aa

--- Log opened Wed Jun 25 22:50:21 2014

22:50 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (10949)

--- Day changed Thu Jun 26 2014

11:37 < Xarthok> are there still gonna be bug bounces and vsync fuckery? don't remember if it was decided

12:03 < lousk> i beleev yes

12:03 < lousk> pipel very conservative

12:03 < Bjenn> no elma if no bags

12:39 < Xarthok> imo that could be "old school" setting. new elma should be deterministic, so a replay could be simply a sequence of button press timings. and then we can make elmacoin as side feature)

12:39 < Xarthok> only my onion

12:40 < ville_j> this old school / new school sounds kind of skaaary to me

12:42 < ville_j> i think i would not change the physics, only make it so that internal errors don't crash the whole game, only end teh ride and also internal fps limiter setting

12:44 < Xarthok> what is acheived by not limiting bug bounce velocity?

12:45 < ville_j> not changing the physics

12:46 < Xarthok> how does it affect the rest of physics if we add a check for abnormal sudden velocity increase that limits it reasonably

12:47 < ville_j> if that was limited, then rides that would be impsy in previous elma would suddenly become pos

12:47 < Xarthok> what

12:47 < Xarthok> how

12:47 < Xarthok> what impsy rides

12:47 < ville_j> in norm elma you would get bug bounce, in new elma you wouldnt

12:47 < ville_j> in the exact same situation

12:48 < Bjenn> int30 bouncebrutal wouldn't be possible then ;x

12:48 < Xarthok> yes, how does that justify not improving that aspect

12:48 < ville_j> i just explained how that affects everything

12:48 < ville_j> rides that are now impossible would become possible

12:49 < Bjenn> Don't you mean vice versa?

12:49 < Xarthok> it doesn't justify not making the playing field fair and without need for subjective judgement when bugbounce recs want to be wrs

12:49 < ville_j> that's changing the physics and that's what i was talking about

12:49 < ville_j> i was not talking about what is justified and what is not

12:50 < ville_j> Bjenn: that works both ways

12:50 < ville_j> maybe pipe shortcut would have been made years ago if bug bounces were not possible at all

12:50 < ville_j> who knows

12:51 < Xarthok> well there would be oldschool mode which would be in every way backwards compatible with elma 1, for those who insist on playing with bug bounces and shit

12:51 < Xarthok> how does making bug bounces impossible make pipe shortcut easier?

12:52 < Xarthok> current wr doesnt look bugged to me

12:52 < ville_j> it doesn't necessarily, that's why i said who knows, pay attention a little

12:52 < Xarthok> what do you mean who knows

12:52 < Xarthok> what unknown variables are there

12:52 < Bjenn> xd

12:52 < ville_j> people have made the shortcut with bugs - if bugs were not to happen, maybe the bounce would have become a legitimate one

12:53 < ville_j> you cant know what kind of bounce bug bounce becomes if remove the bugginess of it

12:53 < Xarthok> not a chance to make it legit with stinis style

12:53 < Xarthok> it becomes weaker

12:53 < ville_j> just understand the concept

12:53 < ville_j> and stop nitpicking

12:54 < ville_j> also some sick slides might become pos if remove possibility of bug bounces

12:54 < Xarthok> its not some "magic unknown" outcome if its changed

12:54 < ville_j> that's altering the physics and that's all im talking about

12:54 < Xarthok> imo it would be just ceiling for max velocity increase % in short time

12:54 < ville_j> i dont orka discuss this more if thats so hard to understand what i am talking about

12:55 < chris__> he won't change his mind vj

12:55 < ville_j> yes

12:55 < Xarthok> it is altering one very specific variable which would not change any other physics behaviour

12:55 < Xarthok> is that also hard to understand

12:56 < Xarthok> it would only come in play in very specific rare circumstances

12:57 < chris__> I think you will be allowed to mod the game

12:57 < chris__> to suit you

12:58 < chris__> but none will guaratuee anyone will play your mod

12:59 < Xarthok> that would be fine too

12:59 < Xarthok> code open source btw?

12:59 < chris__> maybe

12:59 < chris__> I could be wrong

13:00 < ville_j> i don't have hard time understanding anything

13:00 < Xarthok> i know this was all probably discussed extensively months ago but i've forgotten most of the consensus

13:01 < chris__> my too

13:01 < Kopaka> pretty sure no consensus achieved :)

13:01 < ville_j> but as i said, with no bug possibilities, some shortcuts might become easier and some moves become possible which otherwise would not be possible without a disqualification of a replay because of a bug bounce

13:01 < chris__> so ez make it modable

13:02 < ville_j> im not trying to prove that is necessarily a bad thing, which you maybe think i am trying to prove or otherwise you dont make sense

13:02 < ville_j> but that's altering the physics, resulting in oldschool/newschool elma and all i said is that it was "skaaaaaaaary"

13:03 < Kopaka> I think what ville mean is that reaching the exact max legit bounce would be easier since no chance of going above it, so any run that would earlier have been a bug and a wasted run is now suddenly a perfect bounce

13:03 < chris__> well people will play whatever peiples like Kopaka, Sminbu call officall version

13:04 < ville_j> yes Kopaka, good job

13:04 < ville_j> also some slides and such which now result in bug bounce or watever bug, would be oke just to drive

13:04 < Xarthok> ok yes i didn't get what exactly you meant, now i see

13:05 < juka> wtf so much text in here

13:05 < chris__> :>

13:05 < chris__> hi juka

13:06 < juka> hi

13:06 < Xarthok> i know any significant change will break backwards compatibility with elma 1

13:06 < Xarthok> elma improved upon across, why cant elma 2 improve upon elma

13:07 < chris__> this is what I've been saying 2 years ago

13:07 < chris__> but nobody wanted

13:07 < chris__> so I gave up

13:07 < Kopaka> some would say physics wise it's perfect, but I would tend to say ints are already over played and these matters are not really that important in any other levels

13:08 < chris__> I think there should be new internals

13:08 < Kopaka> so making it not compatible is fine

13:08 < chris__> along with classic ones

13:08 < Xarthok> i know it's unlikely suggestions like left alo and other unprecedented heavy modding would be accepted in "vanilla elma 2", but they should be available for unofficial mod play, with levels and battles made for mods too. and perhaps with time some mods would get popular enough to get implemented in vanilla

13:09 < chris__> yes X, that would be cool

13:09 < chris__> still I woud play what "everyone" will play

13:10 < Xarthok> actually vanilla wont have to change

13:10 < Kopaka> yes totally agree, so many possiblities that would be fun to at least try out, but don't wanna mess up the real version with

13:10 < Xarthok> if a mod becomes more popular than vanilla then it becomes the main scene by demonstration

13:10 < Xarthok> i wanna mod jetpacks and portal guns just because

13:10 < Kopaka> :)

13:11 < Xarthok> i don't know how flexible/dynamic the core code is atm

13:11 < Xarthok> and if it would allow anything like that

13:11 < Xarthok> but i think that is the true way forward

13:14 < Xarthok> doing lots of c++ in uni this semester, wouldn't mind learning some from current code, maybe i can even contribute

13:17 < chris__> I hate c++

13:19 < Xarthok> have done very little low level stuff so far, but not afraid of it

14:19 < lousk> imo internal wr tables would hev to reset

14:19 < lousk> pipel said that would be a bad thing

14:20 < lousk> but wategak, sach small weight against positive side

14:20 < chris___> oke

14:21 < lousk> pros can remayke wr's, maybe with some 20sec (number pulled from ass) setback for a while

14:21 < lousk> or more if some styles become impsy, but how is that nat entirely a good thing

14:22 < lousk> it would just mean the styles were impasibel legitly to begin with

14:23 < lousk> then again elma is very mostly about balles nowadays and "broken" physics dont have much effect theer

14:23 < chris__> what about new internals?

14:23 < lousk> they wouldn't become popular

14:23 < lousk> has been tried many times :D

14:24 < chris__> eol was shit

14:24 < chris__> pack

14:24 < lousk> imo no

14:24 < chris__> too many preplanned shit

14:24 < chris__> and impsy levs

14:24 < lousk> internals too, really

14:24 < chris__> internals are fun cos noone planned any pro styles

14:25 < lousk> i dont see how that changes them

14:25 < chris__> just fun ez styles

14:25 < chris__> well internals are made for people to finish them

14:25 < chris__> packs like eol are for making sick times

14:25 < chris__> internals can be enojoyed by more people

14:26 < lousk> very ez finish eol levs!

14:26 < chris__> no

14:26 < lousk> oke name some hard one

14:26 < lousk> i dont even rimember them

14:26 < chris__> most of them

14:26 < lousk> cant recall any harder than some int54

14:26 < lousk> for a nab

14:27 < chris__> in54 is hard cos it takes a lot of time for noob to finish

14:27 < chris__> long=moe chance of headbang

14:27 < lousk> yes

14:27 < chris__> 54 style without loop is indeed hard

14:28 < lousk> didnt mean that

14:28 < chris__> but levs like 54 in eol don't have ez ways

14:28 < lousk> what do you mean

14:28 < lousk> any nab can climb from bottom to top

14:28 < lousk> http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/116934

14:29 < lousk> same case theer

14:29 < lousk> oh nat really

14:29 < lousk> from mid to top and bottom to mid

14:29 < lousk> it's just 2 stages, nat much diff

14:30 < chris__> not eactly the 54 copy

14:30 < chris__> lemme find one lev

14:30 < lousk> oke thx

14:31 < chris__> yeh this one is impsy

14:31 < chris__> http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/116881

14:31 < lousk> how :D

14:31 < lousk> flower is nat at secret area

14:32 < chris__> I never made it past the lower ledge

14:32 < ville_j> nat hrder than hooked

14:32 < lousk> i dont beleev you tried

14:32 < chris__> hooked hard too

14:32 < chris__> but easier than this

14:33 < ville_j> imo no

14:36 < chris__> oke

14:36 < lousk> tryed eol04, theer is no faking way you cant finish it :D

14:37 < lousk> unless can only see shortcut

14:37 < chris__> what shortcut?

14:37 < lousk> hard explane

14:39 < chris__> I tihink you are right

14:39 < chris__> new internals won't work

14:39 < chris__> unless they are made by someone like csaba

14:40 < lousk> i donno

14:40 < lousk> i would say internals hev more variety than modern packs

14:40 < chris__> depneds what you mean

14:40 < chris__> in internals I can finsih easliy most of levs

14:41 < lousk> yeo

14:41 < chris__> there are simply more styles

14:41 < chris__> something for nub

14:41 < chris__> and often something for pro

14:41 < lousk> that goes for prety much every single lev

14:41 < chris__> maybe only downhill, lab pro and ah are gay

14:42 < chris__> also bowling gay lev

14:42 < lousk> your mom is gay!

14:42 < chris__> but fun when I got some skills

14:42 < lousk> but liek look at that newlevve zweq style

14:42 < chris__> ???

14:42 < lousk> ultra simpel lev yet theer is a style only zweq has pulled off

14:43 < lousk> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?p=234521#p234521

14:43 < chris__> ohh yhis

14:43 < lousk> point is, every lev has many styls

14:43 < Kopaka> I agree levs like http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/116927 http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/116921 or even http://elmaonline.net/statistics/level/116918 pretty hard to nabs

14:44 < Kopaka> but also nice with some challenge for pros, hard to strike the balance

14:44 < lousk> hmm ye oke those look harder

14:47 < chris__> yeo

14:48 < chris__> worst levs

14:48 < lousk> imo internals should just be treated as any other pack in elma2

14:48 < chris__> but you know they wont be

14:48 < chris__> dont you?

14:48 < lousk> no i mean liek

14:49 < lousk> in a list of packs or whatever

14:49 < lousk> no reason to put 1 in a diff place :P

14:49 < ville_j> good idea - maybe

14:49 < chris__> my idea was to put new pack

14:50 < chris__> in place of internals

14:50 < ville_j> i donno

14:50 < lousk> then some popularity sorting... so anyone can mayke a pack and if pipel play it more than ints, it rises to teh top and can be considered new internals

14:50 < ville_j> yes definitely nice idea

14:50 < lousk> unlikely to hapen that some pack becomes more popular in long term

14:50 < ville_j> or donno if have to be considered as anything but an level pack

14:50 < chris__> and the pack would be internals :>

14:50 < ville_j> but just a popular packs on top...

14:51 < lousk> ye

14:51 < chris__> no

14:51 < chris__> just let little fm bro

14:51 < chris__> play some packs

14:51 < chris__> and let him choose levs

14:51 < lousk> but it's prety futile to hev some committee pick levs and decide that they are teh new internals and everyone should now play them teh most :D

14:52 < ville_j> yesh

14:52 < chris__> I think we woudl kill each other

14:52 < chris__> before deciding new pack

14:52 < lousk> popularity sorting in practise probabli leaves internals on top forever anywei

14:52 < chris__> so better force the change

14:52 < chris__> or let some newbie choose

14:52 < ville_j> no forcing

14:52 < chris__> yes ma point

14:52 < lousk> no forcing :D

14:52 < ville_j> just internals as a pack

14:52 < ville_j> and all other packs as pack

14:53 < chris__> just put new pack in place where inetrnals are now

14:53 < ville_j> no

14:53 < chris__> put credits at the end

14:53 < ville_j> no

14:53 < lousk> ;D

14:53 < chris__> :D

14:53 < chris__> so I can tell X

14:53 < chris__> yo bro

14:53 < chris__> to coppletle game

14:53 < chris__> yo need to see credtis

14:53 < chris__> :D

14:53 < lousk> ahahah

14:53 < ville_j> gud reasoning

14:53 < lousk> good

14:54 < chris__> :>

14:55 < Bjenn> ))

14:56 < lousk> glad we found agreement

14:56 < chris__> :D

14:56 < lousk> chris for vice presidentr

14:56 < chris__> oke

14:56 < chris__> who president?

14:56 < chris__> jon?

14:56 < lousk> john

14:56 < Bjenn> bjenn

14:56 < lousk> jon*

14:56 < lousk> lal typo

14:57 < chris__> :D

14:57 < chris__> jon will hack the election

15:44 < Kopaka> better just have it customizable by each player imo, can put the packs on top you like and have expand/collapse thingie for packs etc.

15:44 < Kopaka> and infinite hiarchy for that matter if like

15:46 < chris__> can be

15:46 < chris__> but by defult you can put some stuff

15:48 < lousk> wel yeo

15:49 < lousk> in my imagination sach list is online and cane donga with 1 clik etc

15:49 < lousk> in client

15:49 < lousk> donno what smibu hev in mind

15:50 < Kopaka> I imagine very much online synchronized mmje0

15:51 < Kopaka> levs, recs, times, settings

15:53 < chris__> very good idea

15:53 < lousk> klik to expand infoz under lev or rec

15:53 < lousk> star ratings and sach theer too

16:14 < Markku-> in drod you have a list of "lev packs" ingame, can dl with one click, filter by all/new/official and such, and at least on the forum each pack has two ratings, one for difficulty level and one for how niec to play in general

16:14 < Markku-> nat suar if can sort by rating ingame tho

16:14 < lousk> sounds najs

16:25 < Bjenn> sounds delicisou

17:06 < Xarthok> helo discusion, got 3h to catch up ._.

17:06 < Xarthok> im type late responses

17:07 < Xarthok> new ints would only make sense if physics were significantly changed, which probably won't happen

17:08 < Xarthok> and as such, any set of new levels are pushed relatively close to limit very quickly because skill is so high

17:08 < Xarthok> eol50 was impsy, pack killer

17:08 < Xarthok> i have wr because noone can bother with this lucklev

17:10 < Xarthok> forcefully swapping internals with anything else won't ever work either. i think best compromise that could give other external packs more chance would be a list of selected top quality levelpacks after you press Play

17:10 < Xarthok> and internals would be just one of them and they would be sorted by recent popularity/playtime, so internals would be on top most of the time anyway, but sometimes a new good pack could take the spot

17:11 < lousk> yeo

17:11 < Xarthok> oke i wrote this before reading losq saying same thing)

17:11 < lousk> oh)

17:11 < Xarthok> and everyone else

17:11 < Xarthok> yay i guess

17:11 < lousk> ye yay

17:13 < Xarthok> it should probably rank level packs by some formula made from total playtime and finish count in the last 7 days

17:13 < Xarthok> so idling doesn't give it much weight

17:13 < lousk> or ignor play tiem if no buttoning

17:13 < Xarthok> agsdag

17:13 < Xarthok> was typing that

17:13 < lousk> 8D

17:16 < Xarthok> i think game should be called something other than elasto mania 2 too, legal reasons etc. but name it something that still reminds of elma to people familiar with it

17:17 < lousk> how to nat sound liek just similar game

17:17 < Xarthok> i duno

17:17 < Xarthok> Apple Bike Flower

17:17 < lousk> :d

17:18 < Xarthok> maybe need to make contest/poll for new name

17:18 < Markku-> Eat Apples, Take Flower, Avoid Killers

17:18 < Xarthok> Bike Simulator 2014

17:18 < Xarthok> 2015*

17:19 < lousk> elasto philia ;P

17:19 < Kopaka> 2023*

17:19 < ville_j> XD

17:19 < Xarthok> Eat Apples, Take Flower, Avoid Killers, Also You Are On A Bike And Your Torso Is Made Of Gas

17:20 < Markku-> najs but not so good acronym anymoar

17:20 < lousk> You Have To Collect The Apples

17:20 < lousk> oh raff eatfak

17:20 < lousk> didnt see

17:20 < ville_j> Elasto Mania Saga

17:20 < ville_j> will get double sued

17:20 < lousk> :D

17:21 < Xarthok> Apple Crush

17:21 < lousk> "elma something" and just say aple in turkish if anyone ask

17:22 < ville_j> hehe

17:24 < Xarthok> how about Heroin on Wheels

17:26 < ville_j> hey, not everone does drugs in here!

17:26 < Xarthok> everyone does endorphins every time they drive a nice time

17:27 < ville_j> okay

17:30 < Xarthok> wander if physics even have any room for finetuning left other than fixing of bugs

17:30 < Xarthok> how much would fixed framerate affect playability?

17:30 < Xarthok> is everyone that used to custom framelimiters these days?

17:31 < ville_j> wander

17:31 < Xarthok> with proper implementation 60 fps would look and feel smooth, right?

17:32 < ville_j> probably smooth, but maybe not so natural

17:32 < Xarthok> or fps could be left as it is but physics need to be made independent of refresh rate somehow?

17:33 < ville_j> but that would feel the same

17:33 < ville_j> maybe that would be agood thing, maybe not. what fps should the physics be lockedin then

17:34 < ville_j> (i go quick shop)

17:34 < Xarthok> some reasonable time step

17:34 < Xarthok> that would still allow great grip and alobrutalbounces and shit

17:35 < Xarthok> that flat track wheel pop is also bug yes?

17:38 < Xarthok> im think the more skill tricks that are possible, the better. perhaps it is possible to adjust physics, bike behaviour, properties or reactions at specific circumstances ever so slightly to make some awesome shit possible

17:40 < Xarthok> would probably be difficult to do without messing up some of the current tricks

17:42 < Xarthok> what would happen if there was like 1% softer suspension or bike frame was 5% more elastic or whatever

17:42 < Xarthok> we need a nice moddable engine to test that shit

17:45 < lousk> fixed fps and recs with just input would be sik =D

17:45 < lousk> or donno!

17:45 < Xarthok> most recs would be less than 1kb

17:46 < Xarthok> lev format can also be probably made more lightweight

17:47 < Xarthok> maybe give levs the option to choose what fps players have to play at

17:47 < Xarthok> so can still implement low fps slides and launches and shit lol

17:47 < Xarthok> but it would be even ground for all

17:47 < lousk> then many clone levs maby

17:48 < Xarthok> why

17:48 < lousk> if need new lev to change fps :D

17:49 < lousk> donno

17:49 < Xarthok> no i mean the fps would be specified for just that level

17:49 < Xarthok> other levs would have default or other specified fps

17:49 < lousk> ye

17:49 < lousk> so if whane play a lev with diff fps, need mayke new with diff specified fps :P

17:50 < lousk> my brane donno if that's nitpicking

17:50 < ville_j> i think would be a bit bongo... duno

17:51 < Xarthok> well obviously even playing field for all should be a goal. so bike behaves the same regardless of pc configuration

17:52 < lousk> ye

17:53 < lousk> wander slow compjuuters

17:53 < Xarthok> but then we either give up possibility of amazing grip or possibility to do current low fps bulle, mostly shitlev tricks like launches and squeezing thru spaces less wide than wheel but also the occasional useful brakeslide

17:53 < Xarthok> something would have to go

17:54 < Xarthok> i think high fps behavior is more enjoyable and preferable in 99% of cases

17:54 < lousk> suar

17:54 < lousk> how high

17:54 < lousk> what hapens if computer cant run at sach

17:55 < Xarthok> not a problem when fps only matters visually

17:55 < Xarthok> new physics calculation method would be implemented to behave according to current high fps behavior for everyone at any fps

17:56 < lousk> is that pasible?

17:56 < Xarthok> doesn't sound impsy

17:56 < lousk> mayke it behave like x fps without calcing at teh?

17:56 < lousk> id onno how anyting work

17:57 < Xarthok> i dont think ive actually seen physics code either or dont remember it

17:57 < lousk> sad thing is last tiem it seemed like majority of mans dont want physics changed xd

17:57 < Xarthok> there would be oldschool mode for them

17:58 < Xarthok> with everything backwards compatible, old records imported etc

17:58 < lousk> thats a litel problematik, splitting a small community

17:58 < lousk> or could be problematik

17:58 < Xarthok> it cant last forever either way

17:58 < lousk> oke

17:59 < Xarthok> just think of it like transition from across to elma

17:59 < Xarthok> people survived that

17:59 < lousk> was much mor popular game

17:59 < Xarthok> now we have even less to lose

17:59 < lousk> naaah :D

18:01 < Xarthok> it would be the same game, only with the last of the issues solved, overall bike feel will probably not change more than from across to elma

18:02 < lousk> yeo

18:07 < Xarthok> if anything it would add long unseen freshness to the competition, adjusting all people's previous levels of skill and touch slightly closer to that of all others, even if just briefly

18:08 < Markku-> should be no problem computing all physics at 1000fps or whatever, and just push teh to the screen as fast as comp handles

18:09 < Markku-> it's not the physics that takes much processing power

18:09 < Xarthok> yeah

18:09 < lousk> ooke cool

18:09 < Xarthok> computation process should be deterministic on all computers

18:10 < Markku-> i think that might also require integer arithmetic

18:10 < lousk> would that enable some ez xiiting

18:10 < Markku-> like how motocoin does it

18:11 < Xarthok> motocoin dev didn't do it properly imo

18:11 < ville_j> but i think 1000fps physics are weird

18:11 < ville_j> or sach big

18:12 < Xarthok> should be decided what feels best and set that as default

18:12 < ville_j> yesh

18:12 < Xarthok> would be interesting if brake+gas at the same actually did something different

18:12 < Xarthok> maybe enable brake slide at high fps fiziks

18:12 < Xarthok> for instance

18:12 < ville_j> agh(

18:12 < lousk> then more difficult buttoning :(

18:13 < ville_j> i dongt enjoy

18:13 < Xarthok> brake alias, son

18:13 < lousk> hev

18:14 < lousk> but orka release gas to brake all teh tiem

18:14 < Xarthok> i was under impression most pros never release gas if need to continue gas after brake anyway

18:14 < Xarthok> ah ye

18:15 < Xarthok> maybe tapping brake could produce slide of sorts

18:16 < lousk> quiteh big change

18:17 < Xarthok> well, just thinking of a way to keep both high and some low fps behavior somehow

18:18 < lousk> yeok

18:18 < lousk> i donno really how high fps feels

22:14 < chris__> what about voting in game to extend battle time?

22:14 < chris__> or to reduce it?

22:21 < Xarthok> tons of experimental features could be tested in alpha/beta

22:22 < Xarthok> don't write off any ideas too early

23:02 < chris__> oke

23:02 < chris__> I'm off

23:02 < chris__> cu

--- Day changed Fri Jun 27 2014

12:31 < juka> hi chris__

12:32 < chris__> hi juka

22:08 <@Smibu> 11:37 < Xarthok> are there still gonna be bug bounces and vsync fuckery? - at the very least, it'll be the default i guess. but as i've said earlier, i don't know how easy it is to fix bug bounces/vsync

--- Day changed Mon Jun 30 2014

01:10 < Xarthok> how open is the source atm for contributions?

02:39 < Kopaka> something like you ask smibu to join the developer team and get access to github/svn

23:05 < chris__> bye all

--- Day changed Wed Jul 02 2014

13:44 < Smibu> kopaka correct (but it's GitLab. GitLab != GitHub)

13:44 < chris__> kopaka not here

13:47 < Smibu> it's ok, this is all logged. just a small remark

13:47 < chris__> btw

13:48 < chris__> do you know what is it:

13:48 < chris__> -!- Kopaka [~kopaka@80-62-117-31-mobile.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Kill line active: DNSBL listed. Check ircnet.com/cgi-bin/bl.cgi?ip=80.62.117.31 for removal.]

13:48 < Smibu> hmm no, i don't know irc stuff much

13:49 < chris__> oke

--- Day changed Fri Jul 04 2014

16:45 < juka> hi

16:50 < chris__> hi juka

--- Day changed Fri Jul 11 2014

22:47 <@Smibu> jonsykkel you said ground/sky was upside down, was it either or both?

22:48 < jonsykkel> both im think

22:48 <@Smibu> also, whats a good lgr for checking if ground/sky is upside down? anyone knows?

22:48 <@Smibu> oke

22:48 < Kopaka> make one and write up and down in the sky picture

22:49 <@Smibu> sure, but was just wondering if theres some ready lgr so wouldnt need to make anything:)

23:04 < lousk> just use default?

23:11 <@Smibu> made some quick test lgr now, problem solved

23:12 <@Smibu> btw whats the recommended lgr tool nowadays? i just ran make_lgr.exe in dosbox, didn't work in windows

23:14 < lousk> i use easylgr

23:15 < lousk> http://zworqy.com/elmaguide/files/easylgr.zip

23:17 <@Smibu> ok it looks fine

23:22 < lousk> i dont recall a newer program for teh

23:24 <@Smibu> me neither, tried to search and didnt find anything

--- Day changed Sat Jul 12 2014

22:55 < chris__> brasil quite good anthem

22:55 < chris__> I must say

22:55 < chris__> but singing hotrbile

22:55 < chris__> very european music

22:56 < chris__> ol wtf

--- Day changed Sun Jul 20 2014

20:33 < dunnock> hi chris__

22:29 < chris__> hi dunnock

--- Day changed to elo    21 2014

18:16 <@Smibu> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=237244#p237244

--- Day changed la elo    23 2014

23:13 < finman> Smibu_away anything to add to b0ne post? or ropelli in case?

--- Day changed su elo    24 2014

11:31 <@Smibu> i replied to him. dunno if ropelli has anything to add

13:14 < juka> hi chris__

13:18 < chris__> hi juka

--- Day changed pe syys   05 2014

19:48 < Max_> What does elma2 use for input on Linux/Xorg?

19:50 < Max_> I get about a 1 second delay with the keyboard.

19:50 < juka> #stdio.h

19:50 < Max_> Heh.

19:50 < juka> np

--- Day changed su syys   07 2014

17:04 <@Smibu> Max_: depends what GLFW uses

17:06 <@Smibu> https://github.com/glfw/glfw/tree/3.0.4/src sources there

17:07 < Max_> Ah. I think I've used that before.

17:07 <@Smibu> i only tried in Ubuntu 12.04 32-bit, so it might or might not work well on other systems

17:08 < Max_> actually, when I tried it afterwards, it wasn't 1 second, but it has some delay.

17:08 <@Smibu> what's your OS?

17:09 <@Smibu> hm ok

17:09 < Max_> Linux/x86_64, Gentoo/Xorg (x86_64)

17:09 < Max_> using a bunch of i386 libraries from Debian to run elma2.

17:09 <@Smibu> hehe :)

17:10 <@Smibu> was it hard to get working

17:10 < Max_> The menus are also pretty much unusable for me, due to what looks like some buffering problem.

17:11 < Max_> Not particularly. Just did `ldd` on it and pointed LD_LIBRARY_PATH to the right places inside a Debian chroot, after installing the libraries in it.

17:11 <@Smibu> ok

17:12 < Max_> but yeah, the menus seem to be overwritten almost instantly, so I need to constantly move my mouse over them or keep pressing up/down to see what it looks like.

17:12 < Max_> overwritten by the level/player rendering.

17:15 < Max_> ah, another reason aoethatoedoeuthoeudtjkq

17:15 < Max_> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

17:16 <@Smibu> sounds strange :/ maybe it just doesn't work perfectly with that kind of setup, i should build elma2 for gentoo natively

17:16 < Max_> Mm. I think it's my graphics card, actually.

17:16 < Max_> Seeing other artifacts in my terminal while elma2 is fullscreen.

17:16 <@Smibu> oh

17:17 < Max_> or the driver.

17:17 < Max_> I don't think Linux/Xorg has very good support for Haswell's IGP yet.

17:18 < Max_> http://maxdamantus.eu.org/j/js/new/elma2.png

17:21 <@Smibu> looks awful indeed

17:21 <@Smibu> Labs had similar problems with menus, but after upgrading comp it started working

17:22 < Max_> That picture isn't actually representative of other menus, only the start menu, for some reason.

17:23 < Max_> other menus just don't appear, except while they're being updated.

17:24 < Max_> Wonder what he actually upgraded.

17:26 <@Smibu> well he just said he tried with a new computer, and it worked

17:27 < Max_> Oh, the actual computer.

17:27 <@Smibu> yes :)

17:27 <@Smibu> he had some old xp comp before, dunno what was wrong with it - maybe some driver issue

17:28 < Max_> I imagine if the issue really was similar it might be with some sort of double buffering code in elma2.

17:30 <@Smibu> http://kopasite.net/up/165xt6v5eu8jhnq/shitma2.PNG this is the screenshot he posted

17:31 < Max_> What does it normally look like? I haven't really had a chance to see.

17:31 < Max_> the start menu is the hardest one to see by mousing over.

17:32 < Max_> Oh, I can see it while mousing over.

17:34 <@Smibu> https://i.imgur.com/5jNen6I.png that's what it looks like on my comp

--- Day changed la syys   27 2014

16:40 < juka> i hope keyboard is fixed in new elma -.-

18:00 < Max_> What's wrong with the keyboard?

18:03 < juka> _ is ? ö is ; ä is ' etc.

18:03 < Max_> Ah,

18:04 < Max_> Hm. Wonder if you can use Dvorak in it then.

18:05 < Max_> Probably not.

18:05 < Max_> Don't think I've ever actually played Elma on Windows.

--- Day changed su loka   12 2014

19:06 <@Smibu> juka: å,ö,ä seem to work for me just fine

19:06 <@Smibu> what's your os?

19:06 <@Smibu> rancid: ^

19:26 < rancid> what hav i asked

19:26 < rancid> windows8.1

19:27 <@Smibu> ok. well you just said ä, ö, å, etc. don't work in elma2

19:27 < rancid> wtf

19:28 < rancid> havent even tried elma2

19:28 <@Smibu> oh :)

19:28 < rancid> sure i sayed?

19:28 <@Smibu> then i misunderstood

19:29 < rancid> in eol they dont work normaly

19:29 <@Smibu> are you juka

19:29 < rancid> ye

19:29 <@Smibu> ok,ye in eol they don't work

19:30 < rancid> i asked maybe will they work in elma 2

19:30 < rancid> but good if will

19:30 <@Smibu> yep they should work

19:30 < rancid> nice

19:32 <@Smibu> does anyone here have 32-bit OS?

19:32 <@Smibu> maybe jonsykkel? :)

19:32 < jonsykkel> nat anymore sory, only 64 these days=PP

19:33 <@Smibu> nice :)

19:33 <@Smibu> just wondering if anyone needs 32-bit build of elma2... maybe not... Labs bought a new comp too

20:23 < lousk> yes hev 32bit xp

20:23 < lousk> Smibu: ^

20:24 < lousk> oh wasnt for any testing

20:24 < lousk> read needs -> has :P

20:27 < lousk> you mean test builds though? or wandering if ever need 32bit build?

20:43 <@Smibu> well the latter, if needs ever. but it's quite probable that someone has 32-bit os

20:43 <@Smibu> like you :)

20:44 < lousk> ye would think veri probable for a long time still

20:45 <@Smibu> oke, well it's not a problem

--- Day changed ma loka   13 2014

00:58 < Max_> PSP uses 32-bit MIPS OS, no 64-bit floats in FPU.

--- Day changed ma loka   20 2014

08:36 < chris__> hi rancid

08:38 < rancid> hi chris__:D

--- Day changed pe loka   31 2014

20:18 < jonsykkel> http://i.imgur.com/BMgNSsj.gif

20:44 < lousk> thank mr skeltal

20:44 < roopemies> thank mr skeltal

--- Day changed pe marras 07 2014

21:27 < rancid> hi all

21:27 < roopemies> hi

21:41 < rancid> hi all

--- Day changed pe marras 21 2014

17:10 < rancid> hi chris__

17:11 < chris__> hi rancid

--- Day changed la marras 22 2014

18:20 < rancid> hi chris__

18:21 < chris__> hi rancid

--- Day changed pe marras 28 2014

02:56 < sigveseb> Hi all

02:56 < sigveseb> just read about elma 2 on the eol wiki

02:57 < sigveseb> is it open source? can I help?

03:06 < Kopaka> no and maybe

04:08 < sigveseb> cool enough

04:15 < sigveseb> how do you work on elma 2? git? issue tracker? sprints etc? and how can I help?

04:16 < sigveseb> I'm a programmer, if you haven't guessed already :)

04:24 < Kopaka> we have a group of people who has access to the code, which we manage in git

04:24 < Kopaka> in truth quite few actually does any work on it

04:26 < Kopaka> ask smibu when he's here, he's done most of the work and knows what kinda help is needed

04:26 < Kopaka> I'm guessing :)

04:28 < sigveseb> ok cool, I'll hang around for a while then

23:23 <@Smibu> oh, hi sigveseb

23:23 <@Smibu> elma2 not open source atm

23:24 <@Smibu> we use git (with GitLab)

23:26 <@Smibu> there's no clearly-defined development process, because there's been so few developers

23:26 <@Smibu> over the past year it's just been me (and i haven't had much time either lately)

23:29 <@Smibu> i googled your name, found some interesting stuff... is this by you? http://arkt.is/old-computers-never-die/

23:34 <@Smibu> well, you could help by coding ;)

23:35 <@Smibu> have you played elma before? i don't remember seeing your name

23:35 <@Smibu> or EOL

23:36 <@Smibu> i guess you have at least *some* connection to elma because you found the wiki page ;)

23:42 < Markku-> i've seen him in eol many times

23:42 <@Smibu> ah ok

23:43 < Markku-> over 800 played balles too :)

23:43 <@Smibu> http://elmaonline.net/players/sigveseb oh ye, dunno why didnt remember :/

23:46 <@Smibu> sigveseb are you familiar with C++? that's the language of elma2

23:46 <@Smibu> based on that website you probably know JS :)

--- Day changed la marras 29 2014

00:04 <@Smibu> hmm found your github profile now, lots of repos you have

00:22 <@Smibu> what's your biggest/nicest project (in your opinion)? those demo stuff looked cool at least

00:30 <@Smibu> well, i go sleep now - gn :)

00:49 < sigveseb> hi Smibu

00:50 < sigveseb> old computers never die is one pf my projects yes

00:51 < sigveseb> http://arkt.is/ is my homepage with some of my projects

00:54 < sigveseb> I do a fair share of JS projects because it makes sharing them so easy

00:58 < sigveseb> for non-browser I prefer python for most things, java for mobile and C for embedded

01:02 < sigveseb> here is a demo of a real-time audio generator / tracker player written in C for an AVR microcontroller: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cdKfN6vJjk8

01:02 < sigveseb> that was pretty fun to work on

01:03 < sigveseb> I'm not intimately familiar with C++ though, only used it a little bit

01:04 < sigveseb> Markku-: woah, over 800 already, I play more than I thought ^^

01:05 < Markku-> don't we all :)

01:07 < sigveseb> Played non-balle elma from 2000-2005 maybe

01:07 < Markku-> oh nice, didn't know that

01:07 < sigveseb> then I suddenly discovered eol and balles øast year or so

01:07 < sigveseb> I have a user on mopolauta from 2005

01:08 < sigveseb> with 0 posts :P

01:08 < Markku-> hehe

01:08 < sigveseb> and a different name

01:10 < sigveseb> I have vague memories of my brother showing me across pre-2000 as well, but I remember it mostly as "hard"

01:17 < sigveseb> Smibu: I've also done a little assembly, (AVR, ARM and an assembly I invented called GENE), but I'm not sure how much of elma2 is asm (maybe the physics?)

01:18 < sigveseb> from what I've read on mopolauta, the eol code base seems to be quite a bit of asm to interface with elma

01:20 < jonsykkel> its based on "decompiled to c" asm

01:20 < jonsykkel> im think they have rewriten a lot of it for human readage now though

01:21 < jonsykkel> oh maby you were talking about eol

01:22 < jonsykkel> thats separate from the elma2 stuff

01:22 < sigveseb> but elma2 has "original elma physics" ™, right?

01:23 < jonsykkel> ye

01:24 < sigveseb> I'm guessing that's a hunk of the original elma.exe that's been ripped out and wrapped up in sone C functions?

01:24 < sigveseb> or just completely reimplemented?

01:24 < sigveseb> or maybe something else?

01:24 < jonsykkel> the physics parts are "decompiled" into c with ida pro afaik

01:25 < sigveseb> ok cool

01:26 < sigveseb> poked around elma.exe with IDA once, didn't know it could "decompile" to C

01:32 < jonsykkel> aparently it can ye, i think that c code needs some tweaking to work at all afterwards though

01:33 < jonsykkel> also names of things are just addresses so is still nat very ez to figure out what stuff is

01:36 < sigveseb> I can imagine that would take a while to figure out

01:52 < sigveseb> I go to bed now, early hotel breakfast tomorrow

01:52 < sigveseb> gn

01:53 < jonsykkel> gn

10:29 <@Smibu> sigveseb: eol is asm and c++, elma2 only c++. one of the points of the project is to have 100% portable code

10:32 <@Smibu> the physics code was taken from elma.exe, it was kind of like non-portable C code at first, but it was fairly easy to refactor it to portable code

11:27 < rancid> smibu will there be new pictures in elma 2 so can make white ground for example

11:29 < rancid> or masks

11:29 < rancid> textures

11:29 <@Smibu> if someone bothers to make 32-bit color lgrs... i dont see why not

11:32 < rancid> now can make white ground only from mushroom

11:32 < rancid> very problem imo

11:33 <@Smibu> yeah elma's graphics system isn't so good

12:12 < rancid> smibu also option to disable elma printscreen would be awesome

12:14 < rancid> folder always full of snapshots even when its on non used button

12:20 <@Smibu> elma2 won't have elma's bugs of course (except at most bugs related to physics engine)

12:20 < rancid> its a bug?

12:21 < rancid> no ei ihme sitte

12:23 <@Smibu> well, at least it sounds like one :)

12:27 < rancid> i think i just press it when drunk thats why i want to disable it

12:28 < rancid> just deleted over 300 snapshots

21:46 < sigveseb> how is the elma 2 architecture?

21:47 < sigveseb> or rather

21:47 < sigveseb> what is the ultimate goal of elma 2?

21:47 < sigveseb> elma successor or eol successor?

21:48 < sigveseb> i.e., much attention given to multiplayer?

21:55 <@Smibu> eol successor - so some day online playing should be possible

22:01 < sigveseb> alright

22:01 < sigveseb> have you given any thought to the client-server architecture yet?

22:02 <@Smibu> not really - ropelli started coding some networking stuff but then left the project, he said he didnt have much time for it

22:03 <@Smibu> have you tried the current elma2 version?

22:04 < sigveseb> yes, 0.1.0 from 28th of april, if that is the newest one

22:04 <@Smibu> yeah

22:04 <@Smibu> you use win or linux?

22:04 < sigveseb> looked like gameplay + menus + options + some stats implemented so far?

22:05 < sigveseb> both, but my linux install has crap graphics drivers

22:05 <@Smibu> ok :)

22:05 < sigveseb> so windows for games usually

22:06 <@Smibu> yeah those are implemented more or less, though stats aren't saved anywhere so far

22:07 < sigveseb> seems like a big thing with eol is anti-cheat development

22:08 < sigveseb> any thoughts about that for elma2?

22:10 <@Smibu> well, there is no foolproof anticheat... someone may always write a prog that sends keystrokes to application, and you've got autoplay

22:11 < sigveseb> well, at least for keystroke injection you need to figure out what to send

22:11 < sigveseb> i.e. make a good AI

22:11 < sigveseb> which is typically hard :)

22:14 <@Smibu> doesn't have to be AI - it could just read some manually written text file with keystrokes and timestamps

22:16 < sigveseb> yes

22:16 <@Smibu> but this anticheat stuff is like at the end of todo list, maybe banning functionality is more important

22:16 < sigveseb> true

22:17 < sigveseb> finding *which* keystrokes at *which* timestamps is still hard though, especially for battles

22:17 < sigveseb> since you can't go offline for days to figure it out

22:18 <@Smibu> yeah, it's bigger problems for known levs, like internals

22:18 < sigveseb> yeah

22:19 < sigveseb> btw, what is the "fps" of elma 2?

22:19 < sigveseb> (physics simulation time step)

22:20 < sigveseb> or more broadly: fixed vs variable?

22:22 <@Smibu> it's fixed, in code it's like (max_timestep * 1000.0) * (0.182 * 0.0024) where max_timestep = 1.0 / 1000.0

22:22 <@Smibu> in original elma it's variable

22:23 <@Smibu> which is why autolev runs look different

22:25 < sigveseb> ok cool, I'm a big fan of fixed timestep

22:25 < sigveseb> have you done any tests at all to see if some of the "elma secret sauce" is in the variableness of the timestep?

22:26 < sigveseb> I mean, elma 2 feels good to me, but I'm hardly a pro

22:26 < sigveseb> maybe some small random timing noise to the simulation makes elma "better"?

22:26 < sigveseb> Adding a small luck element

22:27 < sigveseb> if you know what I mean

22:27 <@Smibu> good question, not sure about that :) can't say if there's any noticeable difference in having fixed timestep

22:28 <@Smibu> so far nobody has said elma2 feels different

22:28 <@Smibu> except the bike is too small

22:28 <@Smibu> but that doesnt affect physics of course :)

23:51 < sigveseb> so where should I start? :D

23:54 <@Smibu> sent you priv msg

23:58 < sigveseb> cool

--- Day changed la joulu  06 2014

11:30 < rancid> hi chris__

--- Day changed su joulu  07 2014

10:11 < rancid> http://wiki.elmaonline.net/Ratojen_editointi making grass.gif dont work( how can i make grass now

--- Day changed su tammi  04 2015

17:05 <@Smibu> next version won't have lag while loading externals. it's done on a separate thread now :)

--- Day changed pe tammi  16 2015

13:41 <@Smibu> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=239992#p239992

13:42 < chris__> hi

13:42 <@Smibu> hi

--- Log opened la tammi  31 20:04:21 2015

20:04 < chris__> hi

--- Day changed ma maalis 16 2015

20:43 <@Smibu> next version will have debian packages for linux :) will be easier to install hopefully

20:47 <@Smibu> still zip for windows because installers suck i think

20:55 < chris__> nice

20:56 < chris__> when new version is comming?

20:59 <@Smibu> from lauta: "the next version will be released whenever replay playing has been implemented and other minor things promised so far"

21:17 <@Smibu> https://i.imgur.com/Y2oeT7o.png updated repo graph, prolly not extremely interesting but shows some activity :)

21:48 < finman> why would anyone want installers btw

21:48 < finman> also thats what you said anyway

21:49 < finman> but even if they didn't suck, why would they be better

22:31 <@Smibu> hmmyeah, never asked if people want zip/installer, so far it's been an assumption that zip is ok

22:33 < Kopaka> installer probably more noob proof, putting the files a reasonable place, making nice shortcut on desktop so its easy etc.

22:35 < Kopaka> someone who knows a bit what they're doing in windows would probably prefer something portable, ie. a zip

22:37 <@Smibu> yeah

22:38 <@Smibu> usually progs are installed in C:\Program Files (by default) but for elma2 it's not good because it writes the options file in its own directory

22:38 <@Smibu> and boost doesn't seem to provide a way to get user data dir portably

22:40 <@Smibu> for Linux i haven't found a max easy way to do the installation, with the debian package it's max 2 command line commands

22:40 <@Smibu> so better that current way anyway

22:41 <@Smibu> than*

--- Day changed la maalis 28 2015

13:35 < juka> hi chris__

13:36 < chris__> hi juka

--- Day changed pe touko  01 2015

04:05 < chris__> fdg

04:05 < chris__> ';lkfdfgsdvb p[,

--- Log opened ti touko  12 13:40:24 2015

13:40 !irc.jyu.fi Enforcing channel mode +R (3469)

--- Day changed pe kesä   05 2015

15:55 < jonsykkel> http://i.imgur.com/MXk6uyv.gifv

--- Day changed la kesä   27 2015

00:35 <@Smibu> https://i.imgur.com/4j3THzM.png

00:38 <@Smibu> any opinions on the layout of text labels?

00:40 <@Smibu> (the list of times are apples, obv :))

00:57 < Kopaka> well optimal would be fully costumizable

00:57 < Kopaka> but a good default layout still important ofc

11:19 < lousk> that looks good

11:54 < Kopaka> for apples times though could set it up more like a table, with right alignment in columns and remove leading zero's imo

14:38 <@Smibu> it's sort of customizable already; the info labels' layout is based on an XML layout file, so it can be edited with text editor

14:40 <@Smibu> and ye, right alignment would be better and zeroes not necessary

--- Day changed la heinä  04 2015

00:26 <@Smibu> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=242524#p242524

--- Day changed ma heinä  13 2015

21:45 < abcde> j

21:51 < lousk> (that was dawid/kuski)

22:08 < lousk> http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?p=242746

22:12 < ville_j> i think there already are countless hours spent developing new version

22:16 < lousk> yees..?

22:16 < lousk> point still stands

22:18 < ville_j> just commented on your line where you said something should maybe be done before that happens

22:20 < ville_j> it was pointless comment with no value or input to the discussion i am sorry

22:22 < lousk> kk:-D

22:23 < lousk> well can just say "before further gak"

22:23 < lousk> it was zeros point, im just bring it to lauta because he doesnt like lauta for some reason

23:24 < Kopaka> as far as I know there has not been any comment from balazs in any way

23:24 < Kopaka> about 1.11h 1.2 eol or elma2

23:24 < Kopaka> or anything really

23:25 < Kopaka> I know abula talked to him about some of the older stuff, and abula said his official comment was "no comment"

23:25 < Kopaka> and pretty sure he knows about eol and stuff

23:25 < Kopaka> and haven't said anything

23:25 < Kopaka> ofc no comment doesn't mean agreement either

23:29 < Kopaka> and big difference from eol to elma2, the eol zip you donwload still needs the bought version from balazs, elma2 would pretty much give the game away for free even if it doesn't technically use same code/files

23:30 < Kopaka> dunno my point

23:30 < Kopaka> but would be nice with some agreement for sure

23:30 < Kopaka> have thought same thoughts with eol

23:30 < Kopaka> would be nice to be able to give out full eol download

23:31 < lousk> i guess could make it require elma.res without actually using it :P

23:31 < Kopaka> but kinda afraid to start conversation/negotiation with him :)

23:31 < lousk> but yes, it probably turns away most of potential players

23:31 < lousk> the dificulty of installing

23:31 < Kopaka> yea for sure

23:31 < lousk> just looking at all those accounts that never actually played

23:31 < lousk> minus the spambots :P

23:32 < Kopaka> have talked to many ppl with problems getting eol working, and almost always giving them the full version from jappe2.net helps the problem, so probably much more who never bothers to find someone to help them

23:32 < lousk> yeah

23:33 < lousk> on the other hand it can work as an oke filter xd only dedicated pipel get through

23:34 < lousk> but nat really ;p

23:34 < Kopaka> 8D

23:36 < lousk> i.e. we could hev thousands of players but they would be anoying nabs!

--- Day changed to heinä  16 2015

23:44 <@Smibu> haven't contacted balazs, don't think it would make any diff

--- Day changed ti heinä  28 2015

00:28 <@Smibu> made fps limiter for the next version, but it gives pretty strange recs with low (<= ~70) fps :) http://users.jyu.fi/~mikkalle/Elma/elma2_weird_70fps.rec

00:28 <@Smibu> if you brake while a wheel is spinning in air, it starts shaking and strecthing

00:29 <@Smibu> not the kind of stuff you get with EOL fps limiter

00:29 <@Smibu> will need to take a look at how eol's fps limiter is done

00:31 <@Smibu> with 69 fps or less it crashes pretty easily

00:35 < Markku-> i heard there is some 80 fps constant in eol.exe, so the physics engine somehow expects phys fps to be at least that

00:38 <@Smibu> yep i remember some constant too that prevents the timestep from being too high

00:40 <@Smibu> the current style adjusts the timestep but it's probably the wrong way to do it

--- Day changed su elo    02 2015

02:56 < jonsykkel> https://i.imgur.com/pfwHtE1.png

22:15 <@Smibu> oke got the limiter working now i guess

22:16 <@Smibu> theres also a checkbox for forcing exact fps

--- Day changed ke elo    26 2015

19:36 < chris__> hi

19:59 < lousk> yes

--- Day changed pe syys   11 2015

22:43 < juka> hi chris__

23:00 < chris__> hi juka

--- Day changed su syys   13 2015

20:51 <@Smibu> recplaying works nicely now; only need to add control keys (fast-forward, etc.)

20:55 <@Smibu> eol has FM8x, FM4x, FM2x, SM4x, SM2x, backward - i was thinking to use left/right/up/down arrows for backward1x/FM2x/FM4x/SM2x, and when holding shift, the multiplier would double

20:56 <@Smibu> actually the keys could be the same as while playing, so not necessarily arrow keys

20:56 <@Smibu> space would be pause (togglable, no need to hold)

21:34 < chris__> nice :>

21:56 < lousk> what are FM and SM?

22:02 <@Smibu> fast motion, slow motion

22:05 < lousk> ahh obvofc :)

22:13 < chris__> yeps :>

--- Day changed ke syys   16 2015

23:25 <@Smibu> made a simple shortcut mechanism - the first letter of a button is the shortcut for it. not foolproof; if there are more buttons starting with same letter in the current window, it takes the first it finds and ignores the latter

23:25 <@Smibu> but good enough for start ofc

23:27 <@Smibu> annoying console window is gone as well, stuff gets logged now in a text file which can be upped/pasted if theres some error

23:42 < lousk> sounds good

--- Day changed su syys   20 2015

23:16 <@Smibu> NEW: http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=244037#p244037

23:20 <@Smibu> hope no crashes for anyone :)

23:42 < Koopa> hi

23:44 < Koopa> fps stays at 60

23:44 <@Smibu> you have to turn off vsync somehow

23:47 <@Smibu> from gfx card settings probably

23:47 < Koopa> probably

23:48 <@Smibu> i'll see if possible to add option ingame for it

23:49 < Koopa> yes now got over 2000 fps

23:50 < Koopa> after changing settings to these http://imgur.com/xa6WIC1

23:51 < Koopa> i had "Anna 3D-sovelluksen päättää" selected

23:51 < Koopa> other programs working fine with that

23:53 <@Smibu> oke nice :)

23:54 < Koopa> are the physics exactly same as in norm elma?

23:54 < Koopa> fiils different little

23:54 < Koopa> maybe because now i have 4000 fps

23:54 <@Smibu> yes they should be exactly the same

--- Day changed ma syys   28 2015

13:09 < Ismo^> first try to elma2, not starting application :(

13:10 < Ismo^> ubuntu 14.04, ubuntu 32-bit package

13:10 < chris__> :<

13:10 < Ismo^> also "gdebi error, file not found: elma2-0.2.0-Linux-i686.deb"

13:16 < Ismo^> ok, windows version works with wine

13:16 < Ismo^> but ubuntu version no action

13:19 < chris__> :<

15:26 <@Smibu> hmm

15:33 <@Smibu> did you try the command: sudo gdebi elma2-0.2.0-Linux-i686.deb

15:33 < Ismo^> ye

15:33 <@Smibu> in the dir where you dlled it

15:33 <@Smibu> very weird

15:33 < Ismo^> no

15:34 < Ismo^> but what

15:34 < Ismo^> what gdebi does?

15:34 <@Smibu> it installs deb packages and their deps automatically

15:35 < Ismo^> oke, i try

15:35 < Ismo^> installed that deb with ubuntun sovellusmanageri

15:35 <@Smibu> oh, it won't prolly work from there

15:35 <@Smibu> or at least didn't try

15:36 <@Smibu> it should appear in /opt/elma2

15:36 <@Smibu> so basically cd /opt/elma2 && ./elma2 should launch it

15:38 < Ismo^> ./elma2: /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6: version `CXXABI_1.3.8' not found (required by ./elma2)

15:38 < Ismo^> ./elma2: /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.20' not found (required by ./elma2)

15:38 <@Smibu> hmm

15:38 <@Smibu> try: sudo ldconfig

15:38 <@Smibu> and then try again :)

15:39 < Ismo^> on help

15:39 <@Smibu> do you see a libstdc++ file in /usr/local/lib ?

15:40 < Ismo^> ye

15:40 <@Smibu> oke so it is trying to use wrong ver, hmm...

15:42 <@Smibu> type: export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/lib

15:42 <@Smibu> and then try again

15:42 < Ismo^> works

15:42 <@Smibu> cool :P

15:42 < Ismo^> cool cool

15:43 < Ismo^> tnk

15:43 <@Smibu> is it lagging? i have tested only in vm and it lags pretty badly

15:44 < Ismo^> no lag

15:44 <@Smibu> oke nice

21:30 < Ismo^> hmm.. just realized now maybe possible play elma(2) with my chromebook

21:38 <@Smibu> what os does that have

21:39 <@Smibu> checked wiki.. chrome os

21:48 < Ismo^> yes, can put ubuntu in developer mode

21:48 < Ismo^> but cant run wine so cant play normal elma

21:48 <@Smibu> ah

21:49 < Ismo^> because arm chromebook

21:53 <@Smibu> oh its arm, i think elma2 doesn't work either then, would need to build it for arm architecture

21:55 < Ismo^> oke

21:56 < Ismo^> how about make integrated html5 version :))

21:56 <@Smibu> should be possible with emscripten

21:57 <@Smibu> already managed to cross-compiler for osx (untested yet) that uses clang, so using emscripten shouldnt really be any different

21:57 < Ismo^> sik

21:57 <@Smibu> cross-compile*

21:57 < chris__> wow

21:58 <@Smibu> except some old opengl functions might cause problems - hard to say without trying

21:58 < Ismo^> ye

--- Day changed ti loka   06 2015

00:19 <@Smibu> os x version available now: http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8746&p=244280#p244280